Quote From: polarburg
OK, I'll elaborate..
On beating your slaves:
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21)
On leaving your wife and kids for Jesus:
"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:33
And again:
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.": Matthew 19:29
Regarding abstinence because the days are few:
"But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none.": 1 Corinthians 7:29
As for death to non-believers, there's the flood, the death of everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., etc. No shortage of that in the Bible.
Believe me, I could go on. (Since you're into the "whole word," you might want to check out Exodus 21: 7-11.) My point here isn't to blaspheme, but rather to point out that there are many, many passages of the Bible that, it followed today, would send you to the big house, and rightly so. Those who say they follow every word of the Bible haven't read it.
As for their home schooling, I stand by what I said -- the parents are kooks, and the kids need to interact with some normal people for a change. They also need the hot meals. And, no, I don't think they're getting a proper education. The older children by now should be getting lessons in a foreign language, calculus, physics, biology, literature, music etc. etc. I doubt if those two are up to it.
OK, I'll grant you that it's not out of the question that he'll find a job to pay for his tribe -- maybe selling used cars, if he's good at it. I don't see much there in the way of job skills, however. To be blunt, with his mind-set, he's probably unemployable. This why I suggested the welfare and food stamps -- for the good of the children. There are times when families need welfare, and this is one of those times.
First of all I want to make it VERY clear that I do not agree with the father of this family nor the mother, and I do not condone what they are doing with their children. I must not have made that very clear in my last message to you.
Secondly, I want you to know that I do not intend to argue or fight with you. My intension's of explanation for your idea of those verses was to clarify what they really mean if you were in fact reading from the same bible that I do. I have A LOT of info on your explanation of what you think those verses mean, but am not sure if this message board will allow that much space. I will try to write as much as possible and hope that you will get it.
You quote Exodus 21:20-21 and then Exodus 21:7-11. I am going to even go back to the beginning of Exodus. Moses is talking about the law concerning servants in this chapter. Lets remember that the laws back in those days are not the laws that we use today. Weather that is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Women also endured the hardship of slavery. In ancient times, a family might be reduced to such a desperate state that they would sell a daughter into bondage. The law in this section served to protect the purchased bride. If she were not acceptable to her new master, he would let her be redeemed, that is, her freedom might be purchased by another. In no case was she to be sold to a foreign people. If she were purchased as a bride for a man's son, she was to be treated as one would treat a daughter. If the man took another wife later, he was to continue to treat the purchased bride with respect. Her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights would continue. A husband who refused these necessities was to let the woman go free. If you continue through verses 12 to 27 this is what you would see. Moses is now talking about the law concerning violence. In ancient Israel, as in our own day, cases often had mitigating circumstances that might weigh against a death penalty. Complicating the matter was the common practice of family retribution. A family who had suffered death or injury believed they had just cause to exact a penalty from the offender. These laws were meant to place limits on the penalties that might be carried out. A person who accidentally murdered another could escape punishment by fleeing to a city of refuge. "God delivered him," is a phrase indicating that the death was accidental. Acts with premeditation: The Hebrew word means, "to boil up" or " to act with presumption." Deliberate acts of murder, including the particularly heinous act of killing one's parents, were punishable by death. Breaking the fifth commandment in this harsh manner was also a capitol offense. This ruling allowed the victim of a fight to be compensated for lost time and treatment of injury. Like other such laws, it is likely that a particular case resulted in this judgment. These provisions guarded somewhat against the abuse of slaves. They did not endorse the practice of slavery. Now I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone who has slaves today. I do not in any way condone having slaves now or even then. But I do know that this was happening back then, it's apart of our American history. Weather I like what happened or not.
Lets move on to Luke 14:33 and Matthew 19:29. What Jesus is talking about here is that we as believers should be able to leave all we have and follow Him. The essence of discipleship is giving Christ first place. To "hate" one's family and even one's life is rhetorical. It refers to desiring something less than something else. This instruction was especially appropriate in Jesus' day, since a decision for Jesus could mean rejection by family and persecution even to the point of death. Those who feared family disapproval or persecution would not come to Jesus. Jesus' call here is to follow Him in the way of rejection and suffering. A disciple will be rejected by those in the world who do not honor Christ. Therefore, a disciple must be ready to face and accept such rejection. "...was not able to finish" vs. 30, means their mocking centers on the dishonor that results from an inability to complete the task. Following Christ is not something to be taken up on a trial basis. It calls for ultimate commitment. The picture here is of a king assessing his ability to do battle with another more powerful king. The king sends a delegation only after appreciating the weight and consequences of his decision. Jesus urged the people to think about what it would mean to follow Him, and not to take it lightly.
I Corinthians 7:29. Paul is speaking to the unmarried and widows. If we go back to verses 26 and 27 you will see that Paul saw turbulent days ahead for married Christians because in times of persecution, consideration for family can make it difficult to live out Christian convictions to the fullest extent. A virgin would have lesser family responsibilities and would not be deterred by the possibility of repercussions affecting her husband or children. Paul does not want to be understood as prohibiting marriage altogether. To get married is not sin, but even married couples should dedicate themselves to God's work. I am married, and both my husband and I feel that God at one point or another has called us to do something in our lives that sometimes is hard for us to do, because we don't want it to affect the one we love. We are human with human feelings. But we do know that when we walk in faith God ALWAYS is there to guide and protect us. Communication is key, and we talk all the time, encouraging each other in our walk with God everyday. But we certainly would never live like this family is living, let that be known. That is not biblical!
I'm not sure that you will ever agree to the full counsel of God or weather you just want to be a right fighter. But I'm not here to fight, I am here to stand up for those of us who have a "personal relationship" with Jesus, who are being labeled with this family. Again, I would never allow my family to live or think like that family is. It was apparent that even this father and mother could not back up why they believe what they believe. People who don't practice a "belief", call themselves Christians. To be a Christian, is to be Christ-like. I'm here to say that they are NOT Christ-like. Again, I will pray for you and your family if you have one, and I hope this clarifies those scriptures that you gave.
(Original Air Date: 02/15/08) What happens when a parent’s agenda becomes so extreme that his or her children are forced to live a harsh, stoic existence? Dan and Janna are a college-educated couple married for 15 years with seven children, ages ranging from 2 weeks to 14. They have no income, no heat, no running water and are about to lose their house. Dan and Janna believe that their primitive lifestyle is God’s will, and that they are being led by the Lord. Janna’s mom, Carol, and stepdad, Rich, are worried about the health of their grandchildren. Are they eating enough? Are they warm enough? They say because the children are home schooled, they live in a cult-like home environment, and are not exposed to the outside world. Carol and Rich are willing to bail this family out one last time, but why are Dan and Janna refusing the help? After eight failed businesses, why won’t Dan get a job to support his family? Where will they go when they are forced out of their home? Talk about the show here.
