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Topic : 04/10 Marriage Dilemmas

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Created on : Friday, April 04, 2008, 02:12:40 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Have you ever had the nagging feeling that something wasn’t right with your relationship? Dr. Phil’s guests say they saw several red flags before they walked down the aisle, but they looked the other way and still said, “I do.” Randall and Shawn were happily married until Shawn discovered men’s magazines in her husband’s bag. Now Randall is out of the closet as a gay man, and he’s struggling to keep his family together. Shawn wants to know if they should stay married for their two pre-teen children or get a divorce. How are their kids handling the news that their father is gay? And, Natalie says she’s leaving if her husband, Robert, doesn’t change his lazy ways. She says he hasn’t worked in a year and watches TV all day while she works, cooks, cleans and pays bills. Robert says he’s pursuing his dream of writing a novel, but Natalie says the book is an excuse to sit on his butt all day. Is Robert a talented undiscovered writer or a freeloading husband? Share your thoughts here.

Find out what happened on the show.

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April 17, 2008, 9:08 am PDT

judging

Quote From: gwarrior6

 

No, it wasn't entirely fair to the family.  But, the man probably didn't know he had those feelings, and constantly questioned why he wasn't attracted to his wife.  Was it the specific wife, or was it ALL women?  It's something that maybe even he didn't fully understand or accept at the time.  I don't even think his original intent was to deceive anyone, because it's a waste of his time as well.

 

Gay men struggle with sexual immorality like heterosexuals do.  Who says someone with a gay orientation is automatically sexually promiscuous?  Or even sexually active, it's what's attractive to them.  Isn't going to church and having that community integral to helping them cultivate a relationship with God? In the end, God's not going to look exclusively at your orientation, but what kind of life you lead as a whole.

 

 The point is, we as Christians are supposed to follow His commands and love thy neighbor.  What that means is that we are supposed to do the best we CAN as Christians to do what is right and be loving and supportive of others.  We simply do not know if that person is doing their BEST to follow God's commands, that's between them and God.  We may not agree with what they're actions but we have to worry about our own lives and whether or not WE are following God's commands.  Perhaps we are being too presumptious in our judgments?

 

We are all going to continue sinning, because it's human nature, we can try to keep that to a minimum, but every ONE of us on this board are going to screw up somewhere down the line.  Jesus was perfect, but we're not.  We can provide support, and an example of how to lead a good life.  And the rest is grace. 

I responded to you earlier but for some reason it did not show up posted.
Anyway, No, I do not presume to judge, do not feel comfortable with that at all.  I agree that we all should focus on our own lives and whether or  not we are following God's commands.  Each person has the right to live their lives as they choose as long as they are not hurting others.
It is His Word that will judge each of us...not what we as humans consider to be right and wrong.  Scripture does make that clear. 
There are many other commands given to us by God along with loving our neighbor, but you and I are going to disagree on these issues obviously. That is okay.  Loving someone does not mean  having to agree with them.



 
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April 17, 2008, 9:58 am PDT

Well....

Quote From: oldcowgirl

I responded to you earlier but for some reason it did not show up posted.
Anyway, No, I do not presume to judge, do not feel comfortable with that at all.  I agree that we all should focus on our own lives and whether or  not we are following God's commands.  Each person has the right to live their lives as they choose as long as they are not hurting others.
It is His Word that will judge each of us...not what we as humans consider to be right and wrong.  Scripture does make that clear. 
There are many other commands given to us by God along with loving our neighbor, but you and I are going to disagree on these issues obviously. That is okay.  Loving someone does not mean  having to agree with them.



 

My line of thinking about it is this:  What other Christians ultimately choose to do in their lives may be good or bad, free will is a big player in that.  I just don't know what God thinks or how he views the situation in context of past and present events.  We don't know why your friend did what he did, and he can cause a lot of pain, yes.  But we do have power over how we live our lives and can be a good example to people of how Christians live and conduct their lives according to Scripture.  God doesn't want a forced relationship, but we can offer support towards that relationship.

 

Youre free to disagree of course, but I wanted to offer another perspective to it.  :)

 
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April 17, 2008, 1:07 pm PDT

Not sure

Quote From: gwarrior6

 

My line of thinking about it is this:  What other Christians ultimately choose to do in their lives may be good or bad, free will is a big player in that.  I just don't know what God thinks or how he views the situation in context of past and present events.  We don't know why your friend did what he did, and he can cause a lot of pain, yes.  But we do have power over how we live our lives and can be a good example to people of how Christians live and conduct their lives according to Scripture.  God doesn't want a forced relationship, but we can offer support towards that relationship.

 

Youre free to disagree of course, but I wanted to offer another perspective to it.  :)

I'm not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing! :o)

 
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April 17, 2008, 1:12 pm PDT

Help

Quote From: gwarrior6

 

My line of thinking about it is this:  What other Christians ultimately choose to do in their lives may be good or bad, free will is a big player in that.  I just don't know what God thinks or how he views the situation in context of past and present events.  We don't know why your friend did what he did, and he can cause a lot of pain, yes.  But we do have power over how we live our lives and can be a good example to people of how Christians live and conduct their lives according to Scripture.  God doesn't want a forced relationship, but we can offer support towards that relationship.

 

Youre free to disagree of course, but I wanted to offer another perspective to it.  :)

Can you explain further what you mean by your statement , "God doesn't want a forced relationship, but we can offer support towards that relationship."
I'm not sure what relationship you are speaking of.  Are you speaking of the relationship between an individual and God?

 
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April 17, 2008, 2:40 pm PDT

help from Shawne

Quote From: shawneos1

Maybe people should watch the show before they start throwing stones.  I am the wife.  Tomorrow after the show airs I'll update you on the status of our lives since we taped the show. 

Also, nobody has the right to place judgement on anybody when they don't even know the entire story. There is only one who has the right to judge. That would be God.

Tune in tomorrow...

Shawne

Shawne,

When you first found out about Randall how did you get through those first days/weeks?  My husband of 19 years and friend for more than 30 years has suddenly come to the realization that he is gay.  He says that he never felt comfortable inside himself, and that he felt something was wrong.  He is a very kind, good man and tried to live the lifestyle he thought he should.  I was his second wife, no children from his first marriage, but we have 3 teenagers.  This sudden change on his part has left me devastated.  He feels that his life up to now has been a lie---and now I feel that my life has been a lie, too.  I know that he loves me and I love him and feel badly for him---but I am just crushed.  I want to be able to co-parent as well as you and Randall seem to do----but how do you get to that point?

Thanks.

 
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April 17, 2008, 3:21 pm PDT

It's okay...

Quote From: oldcowgirl

I'm not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing! :o)

 

I don't think we're either agreeing or disagreeing totally, we're just conversing.  There are parts you may agree with and parts you don't.  You don't have to, it's just thoughts on it.  The relationship with God, is the individual's relationship with God, which has to come about through free will.  We can guide the way, and you can "lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", see what I mean?  The sinner has to make a choice to stop sinning but we can be encouraging them not to continue.  This shouldn't be applied to homosexuals merely because they are homosexual, but it can be applied to everyone.

 
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April 17, 2008, 11:11 pm PDT

It takes time and support

Quote From: bookwoman29

Shawne,

When you first found out about Randall how did you get through those first days/weeks?  My husband of 19 years and friend for more than 30 years has suddenly come to the realization that he is gay.  He says that he never felt comfortable inside himself, and that he felt something was wrong.  He is a very kind, good man and tried to live the lifestyle he thought he should.  I was his second wife, no children from his first marriage, but we have 3 teenagers.  This sudden change on his part has left me devastated.  He feels that his life up to now has been a lie---and now I feel that my life has been a lie, too.  I know that he loves me and I love him and feel badly for him---but I am just crushed.  I want to be able to co-parent as well as you and Randall seem to do----but how do you get to that point?

Thanks.

I'm so sorry that you're in this position now. At the beginning, i found the Straight Spouse Network and spent hours a day reading stories about other women in my shoes. They are a great group of people and are extremely supportive through every stage of the journey.

At first I did feel like my marriage was a lie and over the past two years have realized that it's not about me. It has nothing to do with me, it's about him. It's about the facts that his ultra conservative, religious and judgmental family would not have accepted him if he ever came clean. With lots of support and love from me, I basically forced him out of the closet and made him realize that he needed to be who he was born to be. We joined PFLAG together and go to the meetings monthly and that has been a great deal of support for both of us. I had a great deal of empathy for him for having to hide his true self for so many years. Yes, I was hurt and scared and angry and many different emotions. I was lucky to have a very supportive family and the on-line support group women to help me through it all.

We have had our ups and downs. I think that for the first year or so I handled everything in an intellectual manner. It wasn't until we moved apart (it's only 4.5 miles but not in the same house) that the emotional aspects set in. It was then that I really had to accept that my marriage as I had dreamed it to be, was over. It was time to redefine the dynamics of our relationship and that was difficult. We did go to a counselor that Dr. Phil referred us to and he was helpful in guiding us through some of the tough times and I think we could have used more but couldn't afford it.

Give yourself time, give him time and take each moment, be it one day, one hour or one minute at a time and just keep breathing! It's never easy to end a relationship. Keep open lines of communication between you and keep talking. Be prepared for the unexpected. Sometimes they don't reveal all of the truth in the beginning and you find out more later on. Every case like ours is different so I can't tell you exactly what will happen tomorrow.

I also did a lot of praying and writing. By handing the problems over to God was a great help. Writing out my feelings and fears was also very helpful. There are so many letters that I've written to Randy but will never give him because I just needed to be angry but I knew that the moment would pass and there were words in those letters that would cause irreparable damage to our relationship so they are buried. The moment did pass and I have found a sense of calm and peace in myself that I hadn't seen in over 20 years.

We are the best of friends now and he's learning how to express his feelings, finally. His family was never a touchy feely kind of family that ever discussed feelings. It was all very superficial type of conversation but thanks to the counseling and support groups he's found, he's doing much better at it. We are able to talk about just about anything now. There are certain boundaries that I've set because I'm not comfortable discussing his current sex life but other than that, we do talk about dates we've gone on and people we meet. It's important that we know about those things because we have children and have concerns about who may possibly become a more regular part of their lives.

We are very fortunate to be where we are today. Had we stayed together I think that there would be a very high level of resentment between us. Thanks again to the Straight Spouse Network and my family! I'd have never been able to be where I am now.

I will pray for you and your husband and your children. You can make it through this. Just keep reaching out to people who can be positive influences for you. Don't listen to the negativity, it's your marriage and your journey and only you and your husband can decide what is best for you and your children.

I hope that you will find peace someday but it doesn't happen overnight. Hang in there!

Hugs, Shawne
 
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April 20, 2008, 2:50 am PDT

Straight Talk

Quote From: oldcowgirl

 Yes I agree with you that we are all God's children and we all need spiritual uplifting.  Scripture says that we will individually be judged by his Word, not by what man perceives to be right or wrong.  When reading the bible it is clear to me that God's love toward us was expressed through the the sacrifice of his Son so that we could be reconciled to him once again.  He put a plan in place, a way for us to be one with him again.  From what I've read it is made clear that we are to put aside certain things and obey his instructions in all things.  We won't be perfect, and we can be forgiven, but it we aren't supposed to willingly continue in sin.   Not everyone lives thier lives according to scriptures however.  I realize this and every person has the right to live their life as they choose as long as they aren't hurting others.   Again, I don't understand why people want to call themselves Christains if they don't want to follow the teachings of the Christian faith, instead they try to change the teachings to fit their life choices.

I had a very dear friend who was gay.  He never really discussed it much, but I knew it, and I loved him, our whole family loved him and he spent a great deal of time with us especially during the holidays.  He passed away from AIDS back in the 80's.  His sexual orientation did not interfere with us loving him.  He was a wonderful person and I am proud I could be a part of his life.

I also have a dear female friend.  Her children and mine attended school together.  Her husband, their father announced he was gay when their last child was in his senior year of high school  It was absolutely devastating for the entire family.  I can not tell you the pain this family experienced.  My friend and her children felt as if their entire life had been one big lie.  The embarrassment in our small community was horrendous for them.  It is not fair for a gay man to deceive a woman in this way and hurt so many people.



"It is not fair for a gay man to deceive a woman in this way and hurt so many people".  I agree.  But you know what else isn't fair?  It is not fair for a church to deceive a man by telling him that his sexual orientation is "just a stage", that it will go away, or that he can change it if he prays hard enough, so that the man marries a woman in total faith that his homosexuality will disappear.  That also isn't fair.  I would wager that most gay men entering marriages are entering them based on THAT lie that they have heard in the pews of their church.  I know I sure did.  And from that mindset, it wasn't a big leap for me to think that my wife doesn't need to be hurt by the knowledge that I am 'tempted' by homosexuality...after all, straight men aren't expected to confess to their wives that the hot women who go by get their blood boiling. 

 

And so we find ourselves, 5, 10, 20, maybe more years down the road still as gay as we ever were.  We've prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed for God to "heal" us, to take away this sin as he promised he would.  And after that we prayed some more.  We thought, "maybe if I just don't think about it it will go away", and then in surfaces in our dreams while we sleep.  We come to realize that this just is not going to go away.  We further come to realize that either God doesn't exist to hear our prayers, or he is not listening to them, or he is listening to them but simply doesn't see our sexual orientation as something that requires changing.

 

If churches stopped telling gay men that they were so horrible...if they stopped telling us all sorts of lies about the "gay lifestyle" (as if there is only one way that gay people live)...if they stopped telling us that we could pray it away...imagine how many families would NOT be torn apart by this, since the men would not have gotten married in the first place.  I bet if anyone bothered to check, they'd find that well over 90-some percent of mixed orientation marriages exist because of the influence of religion.

 

And once a gay man knows that he truly is gay and that this isn't going away like his church (and in his mind, his God) promised that it would, what is he to do?  By then he has a family he loves and a life he has built with them.  What then?  Does he keep lying about who he is?  Does he keep pretending he is straight (which means continuing to lie)?  Or does he start telling the truth from this point forward and try to make the best out of a painful and devastating situation?  And does he try to start modelling integrity and authenticity from this point forward?

 

 
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April 20, 2008, 3:08 am PDT

04/10 Marriage Dilemmas

Quote From: oldcowgirl

I think it is very unfair that Dobson's Love Won Out  Therapy is being attacked here as it has been reported to have helped many people.

It sure has been "reported" to have helped many people.  Check out exgaywatch.com for more about that. 

 

The big problem with Dobson's "Love Won Out" and the Exodus programs is they make people think that they have great success and making gay people into heterosexuals, when they do nothing of the sort.  They sometimes help gay people manage to be celibate, and even then the numbers aren't good.  But it is only the rare person who claims that they are now completely heterosexual (and even then, most of those people just happen to work for an ex-gay organization).  They even financed thier own study which came to the conclusion that true change of orientation is rare, though Focus on The Family traditionally pretends that isn't what the study says at all (see http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2008/02/beyond-ex-gay-arrives-in-memphis/ for more info).

 

 

 
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April 21, 2008, 3:32 pm PDT

thank you, Shawne

Quote From: shawneos1

I'm so sorry that you're in this position now. At the beginning, i found the Straight Spouse Network and spent hours a day reading stories about other women in my shoes. They are a great group of people and are extremely supportive through every stage of the journey.

At first I did feel like my marriage was a lie and over the past two years have realized that it's not about me. It has nothing to do with me, it's about him. It's about the facts that his ultra conservative, religious and judgmental family would not have accepted him if he ever came clean. With lots of support and love from me, I basically forced him out of the closet and made him realize that he needed to be who he was born to be. We joined PFLAG together and go to the meetings monthly and that has been a great deal of support for both of us. I had a great deal of empathy for him for having to hide his true self for so many years. Yes, I was hurt and scared and angry and many different emotions. I was lucky to have a very supportive family and the on-line support group women to help me through it all.

We have had our ups and downs. I think that for the first year or so I handled everything in an intellectual manner. It wasn't until we moved apart (it's only 4.5 miles but not in the same house) that the emotional aspects set in. It was then that I really had to accept that my marriage as I had dreamed it to be, was over. It was time to redefine the dynamics of our relationship and that was difficult. We did go to a counselor that Dr. Phil referred us to and he was helpful in guiding us through some of the tough times and I think we could have used more but couldn't afford it.

Give yourself time, give him time and take each moment, be it one day, one hour or one minute at a time and just keep breathing! It's never easy to end a relationship. Keep open lines of communication between you and keep talking. Be prepared for the unexpected. Sometimes they don't reveal all of the truth in the beginning and you find out more later on. Every case like ours is different so I can't tell you exactly what will happen tomorrow.

I also did a lot of praying and writing. By handing the problems over to God was a great help. Writing out my feelings and fears was also very helpful. There are so many letters that I've written to Randy but will never give him because I just needed to be angry but I knew that the moment would pass and there were words in those letters that would cause irreparable damage to our relationship so they are buried. The moment did pass and I have found a sense of calm and peace in myself that I hadn't seen in over 20 years.

We are the best of friends now and he's learning how to express his feelings, finally. His family was never a touchy feely kind of family that ever discussed feelings. It was all very superficial type of conversation but thanks to the counseling and support groups he's found, he's doing much better at it. We are able to talk about just about anything now. There are certain boundaries that I've set because I'm not comfortable discussing his current sex life but other than that, we do talk about dates we've gone on and people we meet. It's important that we know about those things because we have children and have concerns about who may possibly become a more regular part of their lives.

We are very fortunate to be where we are today. Had we stayed together I think that there would be a very high level of resentment between us. Thanks again to the Straight Spouse Network and my family! I'd have never been able to be where I am now.

I will pray for you and your husband and your children. You can make it through this. Just keep reaching out to people who can be positive influences for you. Don't listen to the negativity, it's your marriage and your journey and only you and your husband can decide what is best for you and your children.

I hope that you will find peace someday but it doesn't happen overnight. Hang in there!

Hugs, Shawne

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I guess the difference in our experiences is that neither I nor anyone around us suspected that my husband was gay.  Luckily I have a very supportive family, too, but no one can believe this is happening.  I think we keep thinking that he is having some type of mid-life crisis that is making him question his sexuality---but he assures me that is not the case. 

Living life one day/moment at a time is excellent advice, because everything feels so raw at the moment that I cannot think ahead to a future without him, and I cannot remember the past because it reminds me of what will never be again.  Just thinking of this particular moment that will never come my way again is a good attitude to try to assume.

I have tried prayer because I am religious person--but I cannot seem to truly give this problem up to God yet.  Hopefully that will come with time.

 

Thank you again for your kind response.  I hope that I can grow to be as loving and resentment-free as you now are.

 

 
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