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Topic : 05/27 The Dr. Phil House: Brat Camp, Part 3

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Created on : Friday, May 23, 2008, 07:38:19 am
Author : DrPhilBoard1
It’s the last day in The Dr. Phil House for four families struggling to tone down the chaos, fighting and unhappiness. Have you ever wanted to be a fly on the wall and listen to what your kids say about you? Well, the moms get that chance. They watch and listen behind a two-way mirror as their kids have a conversation with one of their peers. Don’t miss Wendy’s reaction when her son, Noah, opens up about his sister’s death. When Dr. Phil puts the kids to the task of cleaning up a filthy room, will the challenge be too much for them … or their parents? Next, Dr. Phil sits down with the mothers and the fathers separately for some no-nonsense parenting advice. If you’re a parent, you won’t want to miss this valuable lesson in parenting! Then, Dr. Phil helps the parents make the first step in creating a phenomenal family. Plus, how are these families doing now? Don’t miss the surprising update! And, are you looking for something fun for your kids this summer? Deborah Gibson has gone from teen pop sensation to an inspiring musical mentor. See how she makes deserving children’s dreams come true at her Camp Electric Youth! Join the discussion.

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May 27, 2008, 2:30 pm CDT

Your Own Filter

Quote From: yoshiyoshi

Another note to Noah. You are right, your mother should not be behaving the way she does. It's a shame that it seems people only want to listen to kids who behave like kids. Don't feel you should dumb yourself down, to get what you need from people. It's the adults who are wrong, not you.
Yoshi, you are seeing Wendy through the filter of your childhood and what happened to you as a child. You want Wendy to be the abusive mother that Noah is trying to portray her to be. You want someone you can identify with. What you don't seem to understand is that there are children who truly are abusive liars like Noah in this world. The truth, that you can't see here because your personal history is that the adults, while they own part of the responsibility, the child owns a large part of the responsibility too. You can't tell someone like Noah that he is right and the adults are wrong. It only eggs him on.
 
May 27, 2008, 2:39 pm CDT

Brat Camp

Quote From: johnnyho

Dr. Phil--You are not helping either Wendy or Noah.  It seems like you are in la-la-land.  It's time to ask for some help/suggestions from your Board.   Do you know how long Noah has been so angry at his Mom?  You are assuming this is all related to his sister's illness and death--but maybe you haven't dug deep enough and this is related to the divorce of his parents.  Noah tries to play each parent against each other--"I wish I lived with my Dad--I hate you."  How does he interact with his Dad?  Is living elsewhere a possibility?  Wendy is entirely worn out with Noah's displaced anger and war of words!  Give her some peace so she can get her strength back, rather than just telling her not to hit him and to say positive things to this foul-mouthed arguer.  Even Noah knows that he has fooled Dr. Phil--"I said I would apologize but I didn't mean it."  Dr. Phil and Noah need to Get Real--sure Mom has hit him four or five times in his life but a lot of parents have actually done this and the kid hasn't copped an attitude and reported them to CPS or the School Councelor or the Stewardess.  Being a tattle-tale or arguing about everything Mom says doesn't make Noah an endearing child!  Noah and his Mom (or Principal or Therapist) are not equals, and there are certain standards of behavior that any intelligent child is expected to follow.  Why should Wendy pretend that her son is a loveable, intelligent child when his behavior says he is controlling and manipulative and mean?  I would strip that kid's room bare, take away all his toys and computer--and he would be rewarded only when his behavior was acceptable.  Where are the other relatives in this family--I would make sure that this Mom had a good support system and therapy because Noah is going to be a handful.  I would predict that both Ethan and Noah are going to drop out of school because their behaviors are so awful that they have no friends--or they will be in juvenile court because they have no respect for adults and rules.  I see no signs that Dr. Phil has helped these parents with their problem children--he has just played the blame game and told the parents they have created all these problems.  Maybe so--but can't he intervene and get them some help because things are escalating and spiralling out of control.  Dr. Phil, you have lost round one, two and three--bring in the heavy GUNS!

Dr. Phil,

 

This is the first time I've contributed to your chat boards, but after watching the first two episodes of BRAT CAMP I have to voice my opinion.

 

I am NOT advocating physical abuse but whatever happened to slapping / spanking??  My God when I saw that child (Noah?) slap his mother's face and she just looked at him I about jumped through the TV to slap that child from here to Christmas!!  That is not even a little bit okay.  That mother (Wendy?) should have slapped him and demanded he never lay a hand on her ever again or he wouldn't live to see the age of 11!   When i was a child my mother slapped me once in the face for sticking my tongue out at her and gave me the belt once for stealing.  I assure you I never did them again.  It was not abuse, it was DISCIPLINE which is what the children of the last generation or two have missed.  Parents are afraid of disciplining their children.  They're too busy trying to be their friend. 

 

Secondly, when my mother told me to do something, I did it!  I did not have to be BRIBED!  Are you kidding me?  Bribing the child to get out of bed??  I don't think so.  "I am the parent and when I say get up, you get your a** up!  No argument."  If he fails to do it, then a privilege is taken away for a specific period of time.  In my case it was television.  When I misbehaved or disobeyed television was restricted and that was torture for a 10, 12 year old boy back in the 70's.

 

Grant it Noah and Wendy may have other issues to deal with concerning the death of sister / daughter Olivia.  But that does NOT give Noah carte blanche to treat his mother like dirt.  He is the child, she is the parent.  If he refuses to follow her orders, then he should move to his father's.  I'm sure a week with the father he'd be screaming to come back to mom not realizing how good he had it.

 

Just my opinion!

 
May 27, 2008, 2:46 pm CDT

wendy

I don't understand it, Noah said his mother beats him all the time, why hasn 't Dr. Phil reported her to CPS? She is very demeaning to him, and she always finds fault with him. Kids are like blank slates, they repeat what is said and done to them in the home. Wendy, if you're reading this, try to be more positive with your son.
 
May 27, 2008, 2:49 pm CDT

Noah needs more than extra attention and positive strokes

Quote From: roseyblue

The first few minutes that I saw this story, I felt sorry for Noah's mother.  I understand that they both have to be going through tremendous emotional pain.  But she's just a mother who's trying to deal with it, and he's not making it all that easy.  How do you expect her to deal with this if she has a drama queen of a son to deal with as well?  Maybe...just maybe...if he'd drop the attitude and admit for a nanosecond that he DOESN'T know everything, they could work through what they're going through.  Together. 

  The mom's not completely free from fault, either.  Out of all the kids on this show, Noah is the one that irritates me the most.  He doesn't see what a great mother he has, and I don't think he sees the potential he has to be a great young man.  Which, once again, could be the mother's fault.  But he is a smart little guy. You can tell that by how he handles situations.  He just doesn't have the manners to handle them with both intelligence and kindness. My advice: get it out of your system now, kid.  Because when you grow up and get in the real world, there aren't going to be that many people who are willing to put up with your crap.  Not like your momma does.

 

First, I want to say that I do not believe in physical punishment--but know the importance of consistent rules and that the parent does not allow a child to disrespect her.  I see the hurt in Wendy's eyes, that she is trying and that Nathan thinks he is the person who is in charge and has no respect for anyone.  Watch the way he treats his Mom--the other children--his principal--Dr. Phil.  He is controlling, manipulative and dishonest.  He uses intelligent words but is like a parrot, he can repeat things and make excuses for his poor behavior but he has no common sense and no insight into how his arguing and behavior turns off all those around him.   He is so busy playing the blame game that he doesn't even know how to be likeable. I don't believe this is all caused by the death of his sister/or his mom's deep depression or grief.  I think this boy needs a thorough medical evaluation--it is more like his brain is wired wrong and he needs intense therapy in a strictly controlled environment.  From what I am hearing, only when Noah is separated from his Mom will he accept responsibility for his own actions without saying that all of his inappropriate behavior is caused by her.  I think he wants a change--and think that if he is removed from his home and gets psychological therapy, he will be better able to change his behavior so that he can follow rules and understand consequences.  Send the Mom and Son home together and you have two people mentally unstable--separate them and you have a strong likelihood that Mom will improve with help and it gives Noah his only chance.  (Just don't put Noah and Ethan in the same institution.) 
 
May 27, 2008, 2:51 pm CDT

05/27 The Dr. Phil House: Brat Camp, Part 3

Quote From: johnnyho

Dr. Phil--You are not helping either Wendy or Noah.  It seems like you are in la-la-land.  It's time to ask for some help/suggestions from your Board.   Do you know how long Noah has been so angry at his Mom?  You are assuming this is all related to his sister's illness and death--but maybe you haven't dug deep enough and this is related to the divorce of his parents.  Noah tries to play each parent against each other--"I wish I lived with my Dad--I hate you."  How does he interact with his Dad?  Is living elsewhere a possibility?  Wendy is entirely worn out with Noah's displaced anger and war of words!  Give her some peace so she can get her strength back, rather than just telling her not to hit him and to say positive things to this foul-mouthed arguer.  Even Noah knows that he has fooled Dr. Phil--"I said I would apologize but I didn't mean it."  Dr. Phil and Noah need to Get Real--sure Mom has hit him four or five times in his life but a lot of parents have actually done this and the kid hasn't copped an attitude and reported them to CPS or the School Councelor or the Stewardess.  Being a tattle-tale or arguing about everything Mom says doesn't make Noah an endearing child!  Noah and his Mom (or Principal or Therapist) are not equals, and there are certain standards of behavior that any intelligent child is expected to follow.  Why should Wendy pretend that her son is a loveable, intelligent child when his behavior says he is controlling and manipulative and mean?  I would strip that kid's room bare, take away all his toys and computer--and he would be rewarded only when his behavior was acceptable.  Where are the other relatives in this family--I would make sure that this Mom had a good support system and therapy because Noah is going to be a handful.  I would predict that both Ethan and Noah are going to drop out of school because their behaviors are so awful that they have no friends--or they will be in juvenile court because they have no respect for adults and rules.  I see no signs that Dr. Phil has helped these parents with their problem children--he has just played the blame game and told the parents they have created all these problems.  Maybe so--but can't he intervene and get them some help because things are escalating and spiralling out of control.  Dr. Phil, you have lost round one, two and three--bring in the heavy GUNS!
Most kids aren't intelligent like Noah. Most kids just feel, living in fear of their parents, is the norm. Noah is smart enough to know that it's not right for a parent to hit their child. He's not backing down in fear, that's the problem.
 
May 27, 2008, 2:53 pm CDT

When Wendy looks at Noah....

Quote From: yoshiyoshi

Everyone is deserving of respect, even children. If Noah's mother wants respect, she should give it. That means not yelling "SHUT UP!". It means not looking at him like a monster when he speaks. That's what a bratty child does. Noah learned to be a brat from his bratty mother. If she doesn't have to be accountable for her behaviour, why should he?

 

I don't see her looking at him as a monster.  I see hopelessness, helplessness, sadness.  My heart goes out to her. 

 
May 27, 2008, 3:02 pm CDT

Noah is a manipulative little brat!

Quote From: johnnyho

Dr. Phil--You are not helping either Wendy or Noah.  It seems like you are in la-la-land.  It's time to ask for some help/suggestions from your Board.   Do you know how long Noah has been so angry at his Mom?  You are assuming this is all related to his sister's illness and death--but maybe you haven't dug deep enough and this is related to the divorce of his parents.  Noah tries to play each parent against each other--"I wish I lived with my Dad--I hate you."  How does he interact with his Dad?  Is living elsewhere a possibility?  Wendy is entirely worn out with Noah's displaced anger and war of words!  Give her some peace so she can get her strength back, rather than just telling her not to hit him and to say positive things to this foul-mouthed arguer.  Even Noah knows that he has fooled Dr. Phil--"I said I would apologize but I didn't mean it."  Dr. Phil and Noah need to Get Real--sure Mom has hit him four or five times in his life but a lot of parents have actually done this and the kid hasn't copped an attitude and reported them to CPS or the School Councelor or the Stewardess.  Being a tattle-tale or arguing about everything Mom says doesn't make Noah an endearing child!  Noah and his Mom (or Principal or Therapist) are not equals, and there are certain standards of behavior that any intelligent child is expected to follow.  Why should Wendy pretend that her son is a loveable, intelligent child when his behavior says he is controlling and manipulative and mean?  I would strip that kid's room bare, take away all his toys and computer--and he would be rewarded only when his behavior was acceptable.  Where are the other relatives in this family--I would make sure that this Mom had a good support system and therapy because Noah is going to be a handful.  I would predict that both Ethan and Noah are going to drop out of school because their behaviors are so awful that they have no friends--or they will be in juvenile court because they have no respect for adults and rules.  I see no signs that Dr. Phil has helped these parents with their problem children--he has just played the blame game and told the parents they have created all these problems.  Maybe so--but can't he intervene and get them some help because things are escalating and spiralling out of control.  Dr. Phil, you have lost round one, two and three--bring in the heavy GUNS!
I agree with a lot of what you said, if I was Noah's mother I would have sent him to live with his dad for a few months! She must be exhausted, and that kid never takes responsibility for anything!. He even told the little girl asking them questions that he didn't hit his mother! He can turn on the tears, act indignant, pretend to be sorry and whine all in the matter of minutes! What is his mom supposed to do? I think she uses the "F" word more often because she thinks it will shock him into hearing her. He ignores everything! How can Dr Phi have dealt with this for 30 years and not see through this kid???? He has kicked and hit the other kids, look into his school behavior! I bet you will find he has been a bully/brat since day one! Long before his sister passed away. He needs to quit using her death and his mother's grief as an excuse for being obnoxious. He's sneaky, nasty, mean, and I doubt his mother made him that way! How many people have children who are completely different in their personalities and behavior and yet they were raised the EXACT same way??? I do! Some kids are just manipulative by nature! You cannot blame the parents all the time! Look how badly the parents of those Columbine kids, the horrible Cho at Virginia Tech, and all the other school shootings. Do you balme the parents for something their children did even when they are hurting twice as much?? They hurt for the parents who lost their loved ones by their child, they hurt because they lost their child, they spend a lifetime wondering what went wrong! Yet Cho's sister is a doctor and his parents respectable citizens. Noah needs to go to a real Brat Camp or Boot camp and let someone unbiased straighten him out! One of the biggest problems in our society today is that NO one wants to take responsibility for their behavior, it's always someone else's fault, and our children are learing this everyday! A parent can try to teach them, not all are willing to learn.
 
May 27, 2008, 3:07 pm CDT

I saw that, too.

Quote From: yoshiyoshi

It's very interesting how Wendy reacted after seeing Noah talk to her,

 

"I feel bad!"

"How can he say that about ME!"

"I feel I'M unable to treat him lovingly"

 

Alot of talk about her her her, nothing about her son.

I understand that the majority of these posters are seeing things from the perspective of parenthood.  And, with Ethan, I'm seeing things that way, too.  Noah, though, he's hurting just as much as his mother.

In all the discussions, I never once heard, "I want my little boy back."  Was Noah BORN bad?  Of course he wasn't.  I also heard Wendy say that Noah never cried when his sister died.  Is that true, or did she just not see it?

Wendy needs some time alone to figure herself out.  She cannot be a mother right now.  She's suffering from depression,  obviously, and hasn't moved on from losing her daughter.  Noah needs her, Olivia does not.

IMO, children who lie and make things up are looking for attention in the only way they know how.  Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
 
May 27, 2008, 3:09 pm CDT

Brat Camp

I agree with most of the other posters about Noah.  That kid just seems evil, to me.  His mother apologizes for not being perfect and he looks at her and says "I hope you mean it"!!!  Dr. Phil should have talked to Noah about personal responsibility.  He can't change his mother (and I'm not saying she needs to be changed) but he can work on his attitude.  He needs to be told that he is creating the situation just as much as anybody else.  Yes, he may be a child, but children can demonstrate compassion and caring if they want to..

 

As far as his mother and grief goes, I also lost a child at 19 years of age.  I have attended Compassionate Friends meetings and learned that parents feel intense grief for 5 years after losing a child.  Then the grief will lessen, but never fully go away.  Noah's mother deserves a break. 

 
May 27, 2008, 3:19 pm CDT

ARE YOU SERIOUS???

Quote From: yoshiyoshi

Another note to Noah. You are right, your mother should not be behaving the way she does. It's a shame that it seems people only want to listen to kids who behave like kids. Don't feel you should dumb yourself down, to get what you need from people. It's the adults who are wrong, not you.

"It's the adults who are wrong, not you . . ."  to Noah?  You act as if there can only be one person at fault and it must be the mom.  How is Noah NOT wrong to slap his mother?  Kick the other children when the adults leave the room?  LIE???  No matter what anyone else has done, he had no right to emotionally abuse and physically intimidate others, and he SURE was wrong when he antagonized the other children and previously assaulted his principal.  What he right then???

 

  I saw some behavior of his mother that she shouldn't do, but over and over she was trying to implement what Dr. Phil said to improve things.  AT NO TIME did Noah behave in an acceptable way.  But HE was the one who was right?   Are you truly serious?

 

"It seems people only want to listen to kids who behave like kids" -- well, we adults do prefer kids to behave like kids rather than demonically possessed, pathologically lying, intimidating and manipulating.  Call us adults foolish for that.  Silly us wrong adults again.  What COULD we be thinking?

 

"Don't feel you should dumb yourself down, to get what you need from people"  Noah never has exhibited an inclination to dumb himself down.  He uses violence, disrespect, and lies to manipulate  to get what he wants, as proven by a CPS report that showed he was wrong and he admitted to Dr. Phil on episode 2 that he lied.  It doesn't seem to have ever occurred to Noah to use any other technique to control and manipulate to get what he wants.  Thanks for suggesting another method, though.  If he did decide to add "playing dumb" to his repertoire, he might, maybe . . . perhaps . . . just be quiet for once.

 
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