Topic : 12/26 "Brainwashed by My Parents"

"If the child does not want to visit the father there is likely then a far greater need for him to visit him. If there is TRUE abuse, that may change things."

 

'If' there is abuse?  We should not place a child in harm's way and sadly most cases that have been documented and the child removed from the parent alleged to having engaged in PAS, that parent has alleged abuse.  Sadly in these cases the abuse alleged has not been able to have been proven.  So is it not better to err on the side of caution in these issues?  I say if a woman alleges a man to be abusive to her then that man has given up his right to be a parent.  40-60% of men who abuse their partner will at some time abuse their children.  In divorces most cases are settled.  It is the small portion of cases that are not settled and over 70% of those are men who have been alleged to be abusive.  Those cases the man always gets soem form of custody and this is what is wrong.

 

Case in point.  I know of a woman who was neglectful to her chidlren.  Said chidlren were taken by the state.  This woman was young and had no resources.  Not saying this excuses or condones the neglect, it does not.  This woman matured over time and had more children.  Should the woman's past history require she not be allowed to have children?  Or shoudl she be given a second chance?  This woman was given a second chance.  She has not done stellarly with subsequent children, but said children are happy and well adjusted while in her care.  Said children have compassion for others.

 

Now on to the father of "said children".  He was accused of domestic violence and chidl abuse.  Allegations could not be proven in court due to 'he said, she said' scenario.  Fast forward to the present.  Again allegations are being raised (and rightfully so) about domestic violence.  Should we ignore the history of dv simply because history doesn't always mean thruth?  Should previous allegations only be given merit if it is proven in a court of law?  A pattern of behavior should be enough to warrant protecting a child.  The mother had a history of abuse/neglect and no longer does.  Father has a history of dv yet because it is not proven this means he gets off scot free twice?  Both periods of time allegations were not provable due to lack of corroborating witness testimony.  Sos houldn't we err on the side of caution and nt allow this abuser unsupervised access and control over his victim of dv?  Men like this use PAS to iun fact guarantee this.  This is what needs to stop, or you will have more women alleging PAS against custodial dads.  And another point I should make is this.  You do not see any men coming on this board to post about their current wife and her ex saying that the father/ex is alienating the chidlren from her.  You see women claiming men do this, you see men claiming women do this and you see seconds claiming firsts are doing this.  Yet you see no second men claiming first men are doing this.  This is because this is primarily used against women.

My children were removed by CPS because of warrants (the warrants were due to unpaid fines from tickets).  I want people to give me feed back and offer me insight because I am suffering huge losses and I want absolution.  To get our back story, please visit www.freewebs.com/freecolacchiocity.  thank you for your time and have a great day.

We are faced with what trained experts have called severe PAS.  My husband has not seen his kids in 15 months despite numerous attempts, and has only seen them for 5 weeks total in the past 4 years.  We have a lot of information on PAS, and have spent a lot of time learning about it.  We didn't even know what it was until our recent attempt to gain visitation of the children, as we live in another state.  Looking back, there were many signs, such as her telling them it was more fun at her house because they have no rules, her denying visitation, for fear that they might have fun here.  Calling 4-5 times in a 4 hour period, to remind them of what they were missing.  Last summer (the last time we saw them)while they were here, she sent them letters, one for them to open for every day they were away from her (they were here for 3 weeks).  Each letter was filled with guilt on what they were missing by being with us, how "miserable" she was without them.  If they didn't get to open them becaue they were out with us, she would give them horrid guilt trips.  In addition to the letters, she called multiple times a day, and made them call her multiple times.  Each phone call was guilt filled, and downplayed every activity we did, and created false dangers (we baked, she told them they would get fat.  We swam, she told them they would drown) (get the picture...).  In addition, not only did she call multiple times a day, but so did her sister, her sister's husband, her mom, her boyfriend, her boyfriend's daughter, etc.  For their trip, she sent them each a "blankie" which was her pillow case torn in 2 to think of her.  At the time, the kids were 8 & 10 years old, by far too old for a blankie.  She told them they were going to have nightmares here, and they had to call her in the middle of the night when they did so she could comfort them.  THIS IS ALL  DOCUMENTED.  We begged for counseling multiple times, but the useless GAL didn't even respond, again all documented.  We were trying to get 6 weeks of visitation for summer, and every other christmas break.  The ex fought it tooth and nail.  When we were granted 5 weeks and every other break, she appealed it, and then went to child support to make it look like he hadn't paid support.  Well that backfired on her when the judge informed her that he actually overpaid, and she wasted the court's time.  When that didn't work, she took her attorney 3 years worth of medical bills for the kids, and told her attorney my husband hadn't paid a penny.  Well fortunately for records, it showed he had paid for EVERY bill, yet she was trying to collect on bills he wrote directly to the provider, and it was noted with HIS check number.  AS we looked closer, it turns out in that stack, my husband had even paid for a procedure for his ex wife she fraudulently submitted to him.  And instead of paying his court ordered 1/2, he was actually paying the FULL amount.  Then when it was granted for visitation, she would come up with every excuse, and even signed them up for activities when it was supposed to be our time.  Did the courts say or do anything, no, they just said my husband should work with her and just be the better guy, instead of them punishing her for contempt of court.  As a compromise ONLY, since she didn't sign the paperwork until the day they were to be here, we accepted 3 weeks.  THe kids were on video laughing, talking about how they wanted to come back.  We have tons of photos of them having a wonderful time.  They kept journals, etc.  At the end of the 3 weeks, both werey crying on how much they would miss us, and how much fun they had.  Well they got picked up by their mother, and We tried calling for a period of 3.5 weeks, since we had not heard from theme since they were here, not even a call to let us know they got home okay.  FINALLY my husband called, the ex answered and told him to call back in 5 minutes.  He did, and when he did, he could hear his youngest screaming and crying already  (odd how she was crying before we even called).  She screamed into the phone that she hated it here, no fun, never wants to come back, etc.  When my husband asked her how she could say that, when we had so much fun, she hung up on him.  It tore us apart.  That conversation, forced us to make a difficult decision to drop the motion for visitation.  The longer my husband fought for his rights as a father, the more emoitonal abuse the mother put them through.  Without any counseling, and as long as they were in her care, we would never make any progress, and the more she made my husband to be the jerk.  We continue to ask for visitation at summer, and christmas, and each time, she has the kids call screaming they don't want him, they only want their mom, they didn't have fun here, etc.  We feel we need to at least try to show them we do want time with them.  This is only SOME of it...believe it or not, but everything I have told you is DOCUMENTED AND WE HAVE PROOF.  My husband has no criminal record, pays his support and is timely with it, has a respectable job in a small community and is and has always been a great loving father.  SHe used to tell him he was a sperm donor and 1/2 the mortgage, and it looks like she and the courts have reduced him to that.  Read the book, Divorce Poison, it is a wealth of info

Thanks for the response to my post.  Our stories are even more similar than you thought.  My husband and I also have a son and were very concerned when the court mediator told my husband that his ex was probably going to try to accuse my husband or me of some kind of sexual abuse and that if she did our son would be put in foster care.  Luckily that didn't happen.  I really understand what you say about being scared and humiliated. It is somehow comforting to know that other people have experienced this.  I know too that it is hard on a subsequent marriage.  My husband has a very hard time dealing with it  - it is almost harder than a death because it feels like you should have been able to prevent it. I hold out hope that someday... but my husband just can't allow himself to hope. 

I also hope that people will learn to recognize PAS and that someday the courts, police and child protection agencies will figure out how to help the kids.  They shouldn't have to deal with the hurt and anger and everything else that PAS causes. 

These are my thoughts and I certainly do not claim to have all the answers, so constructive criticism is always welcome.

 

The parents should try to work out what is best for their children first.  They will need to discuss and change the way they do things as the child gets older, because their needs and responsibilities change.  With that being said, there are always going to be parents that wish to be difficult and vindictive and have to make everything a conflict.  There needs to be accountability.  When the parents cannot agree then they must see a parenting coordinator.  The coordinator will meet with both parent and let each parent discuss the conflict without interruption from each other.  Here is the accountability part.  The coordinator will bill both parents, if the conflict is legitimate (i.e. religious preference) then the coordinator will charge both parents for the coordinators time.  If the one parent is creating the conflict then that parent must pay the coordinator.  The coordinator must be properly licensed and adequately trained regarding family issues and to both a mediator and arbitrator. 

 

Coordinator integrity:  If the parent is having an issue with a coordinator then they may request an independent review board to decide if there is bias or discrimination.  The coordinator will pay the independent review board if they are found to be at fault and filed in the coordinators record.  The parent will pay the independent review board if they are found to be at fault.

After watching this show I was so glad that this subject is being brought to the forefront.  My husband is a victim of parental alienation syndrome but unfortunately we live in a state where the mother's get all of the rights.  My  husband's ex has gone as far as lying and saying that he is molesting his daughter to get back at her since he also tried to rape her during there marriaage.  All which have been proven as false.  But the courts continue to let this mother brain wash her child and only slapped the mother on the hand when she left the state with the child and hid out for over one year.  Now we only get visitation once a month and that is only when she follows it.  Also we only get two 15 minute phone calls a week with the child and the mother usually sabotages those phone calls so that the child will not talk to her father.  We have also gone to family counseling to find out that the mother is speaking negatively about my husband to the counselor with  the child in the room.  This poor little girl is only 3 years old and the damage her mother is doing to her will last a life time.  As a mother myself I would never abuse my child like this and do not understand how another mother could do such awful things to there child!  Thank you Dr. Phil for showing us both sides of this issue and I hope more parents out there will watch this show and fight for their children as we are trying to fight for ours.

Your situation is nearly identical to mine. My ex was also a verbally abusive cheap bad tempered control freak. When I read all the articles about narcissistic people, it discribed him to a tee. He had to win at all costs and nothing is ever his fault. He even lied to friends that I had a nervous breakdown and that is why I left him. When I divorced him I had joint custody of the 2 younger kids. The oldest was already 18 and daddy's pet. He spoiled her and gave her anything she wanted, but I had to even ask permission just to buy underwear. The 2 youngest were living with me and he had visitation every other weekend and one night a week. He had to pay child support and spousal support. I was a stay at home mom for 17 years. He didn't want me working and gave me an allowance of $20.00 a week for all those years. When I got a job is when the s*** hit the fan. He would never let me see the checkbook or pay the bills. He wanted my pay check and to still give me a $20.00 allowance. He would always insist the kids side with him and have them decide my needs and wants.

 

In Arizona, the age of 12 is when a child can decide where they want to live. I was only divorce for a year when he started working on my daughter, bribing her with anything he could think of to get her to live with him so he didn't have to pay me child support. He didn't want to pay me anything. "He also threaten me in front of the mediator that he was going to make sure I was living out of my car. She liked him, he was the calm one." He bribed my daughter with money, a birthday party, clothes, a cell phone and a hamster. He manipulated her to a point where she was stealing anything of mine that wasn't nailed down and lied by telling her school councelor that I was beating her up. I never hit her. She did this 3 times. CPS would come to my house but, they couldn't find anything. The last time they were called, she put a 3 inch scratch on her chest to try and prove I beat her. It was all a plot of her and her fathers to "piss me off" so she could live with her dad. I took her to a therapist at church. She lied to her and said I was throwing knives at her. The therapist said she was also suppose to report me but, knew my daughter was lying. She said to take her home, pack he bags and send her to her father's house.  If she keeps reporting me, the courts will always believe the child, and have me put in jail and take my son away.  So that is what I did.

 

3 years later he did the same with my son. My ex called CPS because my son didn't want to report me. He bribed my son with camping trips, money, GPS hikes, and a hamster. My son would throw himself on the floor and have a tantrum at the age of 12. He refused to go to school and stopped taking showers. He smelled real bad after 3 weeks. All of this, so he could live with his dad. I was living in Illinois at the time so when I sent him for his summer visit, the ex refused to send him back. He took me to court again and they said my son was of an age to make his own decisions. The courts are useless. My ex didn't have to pay me anymore. He is the big winner.

 

They all got what they wanted. Now they don't have a mother. My children didn't want visitation with me. It would upset their father. It has now been 8 years.  I really don't have a relationship with any of them. I see them maybe once or twice a year and the conversation is strained. These kids put me through hell to get what they wanted. My oldest daughter got married 3 years ago. I was invited to the wedding but , was completely ignored. I am not even in the wedding pictures. She was very disrespectful and rude.

 

Everybody says that my children will come around some day and see their father for who he really is. I am not holding my breath for that. I have had enough nastiness to last a lifetime. I have moved on with my life without the kids. I am egaged to a very thoughtful easy going guy who thinks my kids treat me horribly. They have learned to behave just like their father. I really don't love them anymore. They killed it. I just can't bring myself to be around verbally abusive bad tempered control freak people. It hurts too much. I tried so hard to protect them from this evil man. They chose to side with him. My kids are now 27, 20 and 17. They are old enough to make their own decisions and to know how the want to act and behave. They are choosing to not have a mother in their lives by their behavior. So sad. Yes, there is Parental alienation and Brainwashing.

That it is a four way road either way you look at it.  Both parents lie about doing it and both parents do it. I am a single mom whose childs father wanted visitation but refuses to visit.  The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that my ex could possibly go into court because of not taking his visitations and say i alienated him.  And with most single parents male or female if this happens it really quite honestly would suck.  I just think instead of people assuming that it is or isn't alienation have a psychologist hired by the courts who has no sides and have them evaluate the situation. If they study the child and the interactions between the child and parents they would be able to tell real quickly who did what. And i think it is down right dirty and cruel to alienate a child from a parent.  Even though parents may not get along they still need to be civil not only for their childs peace of mind but theres also. And honestly maybe to stop cases of alienation maybe we should classify it as a form of abuse because technically it is mental and emotional abuse. The people who do this are emotionally detaching their children from a part of themselves. Because we all have characteristics of both parents and when they degrade on parent in front of a child either by accident  or on purpose, they feel guilty for having them. And guilt does alot of stuf that can take years to get rid of. So i think it should be a crime to do this for any reason.

Frankly you have to watch out for anyone who wants to control a child for any reason.  Whether it be a father, mother, grandparent, step-parent, etc.  PAS takes on many forms and doesn't discriminate.  A normal parent wants what is right for their child despite the history between themselves and their ex.  Teaching a child to hate the opposite parent because they simply love them,  is not parenting, it's abuse. 

It's amazing to me how people want to just sweep PAS under the rug like it's America's dirty little secret.  When my ex called his daughter's school guidance councilor to voice his concerns about his daughter being affected by PA/PAS, the councilor actually laughed at him!  I'm sorry but someone in the position of working with children should lose their job if they are laughing about a child being abused. 

No one would tolerate a child being physically abused.  No one would tolerate a child being sexually abused.  However people tolerate a child being emotionally abused?  Where's the sense in that?  Then when a concerned parent brings it to light they are told PAS is a myth or are laughed at.  Go figure. 

My ex is an able bodied parent, has joint legal custody of his daughter, pays child support, has never missed a visitation, school function, birthday, holiday or anything that has to do with his daughter, however 10yrs later after is divorce is still fighting tooth and nail to keep a relationship with his daughter.  The five years he and I were together I witnessed the obstacles he had to face daily we knew brainwashing was going on but we had no idea how severe.  It wasn't until a couple months ago after researching and learning about PA/PAS when I could finally put a name to his struggles.   Not only are the children victims the targeted parents & the extended family are as well.  It just seems like a never ending battle.  I tell my ex all the time to keep fighting no matter what, never give up on your child.  The one thing the ex's can never destroy is the love that parent holds in their soul for their child.
 

I'm a grandmother who has watched my family be destroyed by PAS and the biased Family court system that aids and abets this terrible crime against children and (mainly) fathers.

The problem exists because, too often,  fathers are given VISITOR status in a divorce, instead of having equal shared parenting rights.

It's very rare that the mother doesn't get what she wants in Family court, because it's not popular to do otherwise these days. A mother VERY rarely loses primary custody unless she is VERY unfit and is proven to be unfit beyond ANY doubt. It does happen, but very rarely.

 

False accusations against fathers are the norm in divorce cases now, with mothers' attorneys considering it to be the easiest way to keep the proceedings totally anti-father. It's considered malpractice to NOT instruct a client in the use of falsely accusing in order to tip the scales of justice their way. It works because society and the system have become so anti-male anyway.

 

Unless you've experienced the horrible loss that occurs when one parent is given all power over the situation, to the detriment of the other parent AND the children, you can't imagine the suffering. To be needlessly kept from any contact between father and child is worse than a death because the pain is always present, always raw, always a gaping wound.

 In most cases the father's (non-custodial parent's) entire family are alienated from the children. My son's only child, our only grandchild, has been kept from us for years, and the many attempts at help through the courts have been frustrating and useless. There is NO recourse for fathers in the system, and few fathers have the means to continue to pay the huge amounts of money needed to fight for parental rights or even enforcement of their court orders of visitation. There are many programs that aid mothers but none for fathers.

When they start locking up custodial parents that refuse visitation, like they do fathers in arrears on child support (debtor's prison), maybe things will become a bit more fair.

 

Why aren't BOTH parents given equal custody, physical AND financial, when a divorce occurs, split right down the middle? Because it's much more acceptable by society to just throw the father away, no matter how good a Dad he is.  It would also take away too much profit for the attorneys, the states and the taxpayer-supported special interest groups. It sure would save a lot of children though!