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Topic : 10/29 Gender Confused Children

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Created on : Friday, October 24, 2008, 02:51:47 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Dr. Phil tackles the sensitive topic of children who identify more with the opposite sex. What do you do if your son wants to wear dresses and play with dolls? Or if your daughter tells you she wants to be a boy? Should parents chock it up to being a phase that their children will grow out of, or should they intervene right away? Meet Melissa and Tim, whose 8-year-old son declared himself to be a girl when he was just 3 years old. Now, they allow their child to live as a girl and wonder if and when they should begin hormone therapy. Then, when Mary’s son was 8, he told her he felt like a girl, and Mary allowed him to experiment with dressing as a female. Now a teenager, her son is more comfortable living as a male -- but Mary wonders if she caused his confusion. Joining the discussion are experts with differing points of view: Dr. Dan Siegel, professor and clinical psychiatrist at UCLA School of Medicine, and Glenn Stanton, author and research fellow with the organization Focus on the Family. Is gender identity something we’re born with, or is it influenced by parents and environment? Don’t miss this heated discussion, then talk about the show here..

Find out what happened on the show.

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October 31, 2008, 1:36 pm PDT

Want to trade shoes?

Quote From: havasumoma

It is NOT A DECISION...you never decided your gender, you just KNEW who you were...SO DO THEY!!!!!

 

You are so literal. I know what you mean when you talk about satan, I just see satan living in different people than you do. I see satan in bigotry, hate, and judgment. I see satan in closed minds and hearts.

 

Really, walk a mile in my shoes. Here is the real decision... to have a dead (biologic female) child or a happy, healthy, alive male (transgender) child, what would you choose? What would God want? What could you live with?

As a little girl I went through stuff that no child should ever have to go through.  It wasn't immediate family that did this stuff to me but it still happend to me.  Alot of people decide that they after having experiences such as mine or even worse would then not want to be a the sex they are or choose not to be with the opposite sex because of the memories that do come flooding back.  And as a child I did have the natural curiosity that many children have about being the opposite sex.  I did go through that stage.  And back to the real decision, the child shouldn't be allowed to make such life altering decisions at such a young age, I won't disagree that children have these feelings (whether or not we agree that satan is the one putting them there), these children do have to be handled very delicatly.  You probably wouldn't believe the amount of times I have said that I wish I was a boy,  just due to the fact that I don't like all the things I have to go through as a woman.   But it does not mean that I really want to be a boy.  And if I remember correctly I did at one point tell my mom that I didn't like being a girl and that I wish I were a boy, she did of course talk to me about those feelings.  I didn't say anything about if they still choose to do it as an adult stand in their way.  Everybody has their own beliefs and teach/guide their children accordingly and pray and hope they make their decision according to your beliefs.  It is your child and you will always love him/her no matter the decisions they make, even if it were my child who came to me and said that he wanted to be a girl.  I would tell him that God still loves him as do I.  I too see satan manifest himself in ways as you have mentioned but I also see him manifest himself in other ways in people. 
 
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October 31, 2008, 1:46 pm PDT

it's all in how they are raised

I am a Grandparent of a 6 year old boy whose mother was raising him in a feminine manner.  I sounded the alarm many times but no one would listen.  I too, believe that gender confusion is taught.  If a child acts out the opposite sex in a manner that is beyond their age than it can only be a taught reaction.  I have gained custody of this child and have had  him in care for over a year now and we are not done yet.  There has been great improvement and I believe that I have done the right thing.  There are more girl impressions in society then boys and I dare anyone to dispute this.  Helpthe children to understand and don't enable them..........
 

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October 31, 2008, 2:00 pm PDT

Not productive

Quote From: havasumoma

Waiting could end in death...how is that better? Better than what?

       Give me what I want or I'll kill myself is definitely not something any authority figure should ever condone. Suicide is a action based on an emotional response that If I recall properly is Evolutionary Psychology terms Irrational Thought.

       A child who is in a phase will still show distress, and a parent doesn't have a accurate measure to distinquish between a child in distress by a phase of gender versus a child in distress who is not. Perhaps, the gene research that another poster presented from an online news article will provide the distinquish between which distress is a phase or not. Until then, waiting would be better than reversing who will become depressed and in your terms could end up committing suicide. As to which would be better, I consider that both are equally unacceptable.

     

 
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October 31, 2008, 2:02 pm PDT

Let's hope for his sake you are right

Quote From: djconline

I am a Grandparent of a 6 year old boy whose mother was raising him in a feminine manner.  I sounded the alarm many times but no one would listen.  I too, believe that gender confusion is taught.  If a child acts out the opposite sex in a manner that is beyond their age than it can only be a taught reaction.  I have gained custody of this child and have had  him in care for over a year now and we are not done yet.  There has been great improvement and I believe that I have done the right thing.  There are more girl impressions in society then boys and I dare anyone to dispute this.  Helpthe children to understand and don't enable them..........
Some kids are just garden variety gender variant. I hope your grandson is one of those kids. If not you could be doing irreparable harm. Good luck to you both.
 
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October 31, 2008, 2:06 pm PDT

just to clarify

Quote From: havasumoma

Don't anyone jump to conclusions about hormones and young children. What children and their families may choose as treatment when puberty begins are GrNH inhibitors. They inhibit further developments of puberty (which are permanent and not easily reversed).

 

GrNH inhibitors ARE REVERSIBLE and the whole purpose of them is to give children and their families time to make informed decisions.

 

Cross gender hormones (much less reversible) are not given until such time as the child understands and accepts the permanent nature of that decision.

 

GrNH inhibitors are not administered without agreement of a medical team and once a child is in tanner stage 2 of development. What this means is that the child has already experienced their 'birth gender' hormones and it has CAUSED THEM DISTRESS.

 The distinction you make is correct in one sense, however there is more to it than that...you said:

"Cross gender hormones (much less reversible) are not given until suchtime as the child understands and accepts the permanent nature of thatdecision."

This is partially true when discussing kids who present as transsexuals...although in many cases teenage kids (young adults, really) at 14, 15, 16, 17, etc. who have lived their entire lives in line with their internal sense of gender and fully understand the implications and permanent nature of the treatment and still desperately want it are still denied that treatment until they reach a legal adult status at age 18. In many cases their personal sense of gender is given no consideration whatsoever, purely on legal grounds...which is understandable to some degree, but also highly illogical when you consider that minors that age can get purely cosmetic procedures like nose jobs, ear pinning, mole removal, etc. with little if any impediment, as long as they have their parent's consent.

As for intersex kids, it is simply incorrect to say that they are not given cross gender hormones until they understand the implications; in many cases they are given supplemental sex hormones (not just blockers) almost from birth and any underlying intersex condition is hidden from them on the advice of medical professionals....and even when they exhibit signs that their sex assignment and internal sense of gender don't match,  in many cases it is the arbitrary birth assignment and not their sense of who they are that is reinforced.

This was the case with David Reimer, who wasn't TG or intersexed but was surgically altered to have female genitalia and given cross-gender hormone "therapy" after his penis was irreparably damaged during circumcision, and who for years literally begged for his male gender identity to be acknowledged and supported- pleas which fell on deaf ears. He eventually committed suicide.

Sadly, his situation is all too familiar for many intersex people. This is changing slowly as intersex people who had it hidden from them learn of their conditions and speak out and demand that their internal sense of gender be recognized and respected and that kids be left alone until they are mature enough to make a rational, infomed,  adult decision  about hormones and surgery (where have we heard *that* before?), but it is still something treated by many fundamentalists as shameful and weird and a "disorder" that *must* be medically "corrected" ASAP even though as I said before, kids born this way are created by a God who doesn't make mistakes and often function just fine both physically and emotionally  with no medical intervention at all.

Anyone interested in learning more about IS and the repercussions of the shame based treatment it gets  can do so at this link-

http://www.intersexualite.org/English_OII/English_OII_index.html


 
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October 31, 2008, 2:07 pm PDT

Well there you have it...a child's life is expendable

Quote From: seenfff

       Give me what I want or I'll kill myself is definitely not something any authority figure should ever condone. Suicide is a action based on an emotional response that If I recall properly is Evolutionary Psychology terms Irrational Thought.

       A child who is in a phase will still show distress, and a parent doesn't have a accurate measure to distinquish between a child in distress by a phase of gender versus a child in distress who is not. Perhaps, the gene research that another poster presented from an online news article will provide the distinquish between which distress is a phase or not. Until then, waiting would be better than reversing who will become depressed and in your terms could end up committing suicide. As to which would be better, I consider that both are equally unacceptable.

     

My friends child took his own life last October. No discussion, no threats, no obvious signs. This child was being seen by a psychologist and the parents were working with him. His parents don't get a second chance to 'understand' or to 'support' him or to 'choose' his path for him. IT IS OVER; DEATH IS THE FINAL DECISION.

 

I feel death is a far less acceptable an outcome.

 
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October 31, 2008, 2:13 pm PDT

Dead children do not get to make decisions later

Quote From: txmommy2boys

As a little girl I went through stuff that no child should ever have to go through.  It wasn't immediate family that did this stuff to me but it still happend to me.  Alot of people decide that they after having experiences such as mine or even worse would then not want to be a the sex they are or choose not to be with the opposite sex because of the memories that do come flooding back.  And as a child I did have the natural curiosity that many children have about being the opposite sex.  I did go through that stage.  And back to the real decision, the child shouldn't be allowed to make such life altering decisions at such a young age, I won't disagree that children have these feelings (whether or not we agree that satan is the one putting them there), these children do have to be handled very delicatly.  You probably wouldn't believe the amount of times I have said that I wish I was a boy,  just due to the fact that I don't like all the things I have to go through as a woman.   But it does not mean that I really want to be a boy.  And if I remember correctly I did at one point tell my mom that I didn't like being a girl and that I wish I were a boy, she did of course talk to me about those feelings.  I didn't say anything about if they still choose to do it as an adult stand in their way.  Everybody has their own beliefs and teach/guide their children accordingly and pray and hope they make their decision according to your beliefs.  It is your child and you will always love him/her no matter the decisions they make, even if it were my child who came to me and said that he wanted to be a girl.  I would tell him that God still loves him as do I.  I too see satan manifest himself in ways as you have mentioned but I also see him manifest himself in other ways in people. 

If they don't live to be adults then how would this work?

 

You are assuming that because you had these feelings and they stemmed from some childhood experience you had it is the same for others...it isn't.

 

My child has had a wonderful life. He wasn't sexually abused, or verbally abused. He has two loving parents and two loving siblings.

 

People always want to insist that there is something 'else' wrong. That there is a problem with the parents or the environment. Many, many, many people are sexually abused and have rotten childhoods and horrible or absent parents and they don't end up being transgender.

 

 

 
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October 31, 2008, 2:17 pm PDT

I did all that and my kid is still transgender!!!

Quote From: lovinlife5678

I do not agree with what Melissa and Tim are doing.  Children are very easily manipulated.  I don't think they did anything on purpose.  Instead of discouraging their son and trying to strengthen his masculinity it almost seems like she was too accepting.  Like she helped him with the words he needed, and the phrases he needed to convince people that this is what he is and this is what he needs.  You can be understanding without encouraging it.  I don't believe that at 3 years old a child knows what they want, and it is up to the parents to steer him down the right path.  They don't know what being a girl is, or being a boy is.  As far as they are concerned being a boy is playing with boy toys, and wearing boy clothes, and vice versa for a girl.  I think that all children are curious about the other sex and want to know more about them.  Play with the toys.  Put him in ballet if that's what he wants.  That doesn't mean that he wants to be a girl, or that "god made a mistake".  I really strongly believe that if they steered him more towards being a boy, rather than letting him just do what he wanted there would be a completely different outcome.  I have a step-daughter who wears boy clothes, she plays the boy when her and her sister play games.  She insists on being the boy and having a boy name.  She plays hockey, and plays more with boys than with girls.  She even says she's a boy sometimes.  She says she hates girl stuff, but really doesn't.  She likes girl stuff, and being pretty, she just doesn't show it very often.  Her sister is the girly girl and if she shows that she likes girl stuff it means they are too much alike.  I think her being a "tom boy" started from getting attention for being a boyish girl.  People think it's cool that I'm a girl and like doing boy stuff.  So she plays it up.  She is a twin so her desire for attention is a little strong than some other children's may be.  Which could also be the reason why she tries so hard to be different.  I don't think for a second that she is a gender confused child.  She is just a child that likes boy stuff more than girls stuff(most of the time).  If we let her be a boy she would totally go with it.  After a while I'm sure she would want to be a boy, want to grow a penis.  When you play a certain character for so long you start to take on the characteristics.  Naturally if she were to 'act' like a boy for 5 years she would want to grow a penis.  Just like Melissa's son.  Letting him 'act' like a girl for 5 years, of course he's not going to want to look more like a boy by growing body and facial hair.  She could have let him take ballet, and played with girls toys and still insist 'you can play with this stuff, buy you know you are a boy'.  If this gender confused child, truly is a gender confused child, it's not going to go away.  He would insist on it for many years to come.  Once you think he truly is capable of making his own decisions and it wasn't just a phase, or curiosity, then take the steps needed then.  Letting a child decide at 3 to become a girl is just ridiculous! 

You are all over looking the obvious. Parents try all of these steps. They simply do not work in some children. In many, many children they do and in those cases there is no need to pursue other options.
 
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October 31, 2008, 2:19 pm PDT

10/29 Gender Confused Children

Quote From: tina_socal

 The difference you are ignoring is that I never said that you believe what you believe or feel what you feel  because an evil demon got inside your head.

There are those in this world who would say exactly that, for instance some radical Muslim fundamentalists...their blanket assertion that your beliefs and feelings are Satanic in origin  would by any stretch of the imagination be seen by reasonable people as being the very definition of "religious intolerance".


Yet you and other fundamentalist Christians make the same blanket assertions about the beliefs and feelings of others and refuse to see that same intolerance, and instead cry "intolerance" when your own intolerance is pointed out.

And while I may believe that what I present is fact, that belief is based in objective observation, not blind acceptance of religious dogma that can only offer up unproveable accusations of Satanic influence to explain its inconsistencies.

Big difference.


But you do still believe that I am wrong in what I believe.  I know that people out there think that my beliefs come from somebody putting evil thoughts in my head.  And honestly I can see how and why they may think that.  I am more understanding then some people give me credit for.  If I had "religious intolerance" then how is it that I keep people in my live even though I do not agree with them and how they choose to live their lives?  Why wouldn't I just shut them out of my life, yell at them, call them nasty names, and so on and so forth?  And that includes people who have wronged me in ways that nobody should ever be wronged.  There is a big difference between "religious intolerance" and "religious beliefs".  And as far as your objective observation goes that is considered a bias.  Just as I am sure you consider me biased based on what I believe.  Everybody has their beliefs.  Nobody is going to agree on this across the board, if we did we would not have our free will.   

 
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October 31, 2008, 2:19 pm PDT

God does NOT make mistakes

I am a female who likes to play football, basketball, go fishing. I worm my own hooks and I take the fish off the hooks. I don't make a big fuss when I break a nail. I don't like doing all the girl things. I have long hair and pull it up in a ponytail, I don't go through the trouble of fixing it up. I don't wear makeup on a daily basis. I feel more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt than I do in a dress. Does this make me gender confused? Does all this mean that I am a boy inside a girl's body? I don't think so. I am just a girl who has more male genes than female. That is the way God made me. I am a female and I am perfectly comfortable with that. My parents never resented me as a girl. In fact my dad let me help him work on the car. But when I did ask them if I could shop in the boys section of the store they told me No. And then they took me to the Bible and told me why. God made me a girl and so I need to embrace that. It is ok to like boy things, but I need to accept myself for who I am, and they helped me with that. If my girls ever go through the same problem, I will teach them the same things.
 
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