Topic : 10/29 Gender Confused Children

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Created on : Friday, October 24, 2008, 02:51:47 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Dr. Phil tackles the sensitive topic of children who identify more with the opposite sex. What do you do if your son wants to wear dresses and play with dolls? Or if your daughter tells you she wants to be a boy? Should parents chock it up to being a phase that their children will grow out of, or should they intervene right away? Meet Melissa and Tim, whose 8-year-old son declared himself to be a girl when he was just 3 years old. Now, they allow their child to live as a girl and wonder if and when they should begin hormone therapy. Then, when Mary’s son was 8, he told her he felt like a girl, and Mary allowed him to experiment with dressing as a female. Now a teenager, her son is more comfortable living as a male -- but Mary wonders if she caused his confusion. Joining the discussion are experts with differing points of view: Dr. Dan Siegel, professor and clinical psychiatrist at UCLA School of Medicine, and Glenn Stanton, author and research fellow with the organization Focus on the Family. Is gender identity something we’re born with, or is it influenced by parents and environment? Don’t miss this heated discussion, then talk about the show here..

Find out what happened on the show.

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October 31, 2008, 7:39 pm PDT

Female to Male and Intersex

With much talk,discussion on male to female gender differnt or transgender children, little has been said about female to male identified youth or those born intersex. There are as many F to M trans folks as there are M to F.Many times it appears far more socially acceptable for girls to be a "Tom-Boy" than a boy in a
"dress". There is social double standard here. Girls wearing jeans and a tee shirt is usually fine today, while it is a scandal for a boy to wear a dress. I do believe this is based on social expectation of men and boys to behave in very specific ways which is narrow and limiting. Women and girls do have more fashion and gender expression options today than men do. It's not just what one wears, but who they are that brings the clothes and what they wear to life. It's all part of how each one of us express our sense of gender.

Those who are born intersex is more common than is openly believed. These are individuals who "fall in between" the binary expectation of what gender, genitalia and sexual orientation should be. IMO, those who are born transgender or gender differnt are basically a form of being intersex. Those who are identified as intersex have the physical, measurable aspects of their bodies that allows others proclaim them as "intersex" while transgender or gender differnt individuals usually don't. Regardless, all are the realities of the human condition. They are as nature ment human beings to be in all their beatiful diversity.

“Nature loves variety, but society hates it, “Let’s see if we can change society rather than nature.”
 
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October 31, 2008, 7:59 pm PDT

10/29 Gender Confused Children

Quote From: michelle555

As I said earlier, I am a transsexual woman and a former Computer Programmer. I also have a BA in Pastoral Ministry and love Jesus Christ very much. Jesus, the Bible, and Christian Religion do not teach against transgenderism - Self-important, Attention Seeking Preachers Do (along with their mindless followers).

The question of accepting your childs need to transition comes down to just ONE THING - DO YOU WANT  A LIVE DAUGHTER - OR A DEAD SON (or vice-versa).  About half of the many transsexuals I know decided to transition to the opposite sex after attempting suicide. Fortunately, I was never among them, but I was very unhappy playing male nonetheless.

There is a rule among Psychologists called "The 40 Percent Rule." It says that 40 percent of all people who feel they were born the wrong sex will be dead by the age of 30, usually by their own hand. That's because they can't stand to play male (or female) when they don't feel that way inside. Unfortunately, current Diagnostic Imaging and Brain Scanning equipment is not yet available to medically diagnose whether someone's Gender Identity  (as defined by 12 states and the District of Columbia's governments in the U.S., along with many cities and counties and other countries' governments).

I've known I had Gender DyspHoria (the opposite of Euphoria) since I was very young. When I first found some girls' clothes in our attic at the age of nine and put them on, my parents made it very clear that They Would Never Accept a Transsexual Child, nor tolerate an "outwardly male" child dressing in girls' clothing. So much for The Myth of Unconditional Love. After that, until I was 16, they would occasionally come home and find me wearing girls' clothing - but I never told them why I did. And they always got mad, although they never PHYSICALLY hurt me.  VERBAL ABUSE was another matter though - and I still have trouble trusting my parents, knowing they thought I should live by the motto, as seen on the old television show, "I Dream Of Jeannie,"  "Does It Please You Master?   My father often said, "I don't live my life to please others, and if they don't like what I do, then THEY have a problem.

I remember thinking many times over the years, "If I woke up a girl, I would NOT be disappointed." When I was 16, my mother said to me, "If you don't stop wearing girls' clothes, I'm going to EVICT you. I had no job, no money, and didn't know where I would go if I did get evicted, so I was a lot more careful about when I did it. Unlike gay people, whom my pastor said were "sinful," no one had ever of transsexuals, except rumors that they lived in distant places like New York, Amsterdam, and the like.

Since I had never heard of transsexualism, other than rumors, I thought I was the only one like me. I didn't find out differently until I was about 30 years old. When I was 43, I called my mother (I was living in a distant city) and said, "I just changed my legal name - it is now Michelle," and she said, "Oh, is that all?" I thought she'd be the first to disown me, based on what she'd said earlier. After she told my father, I called him and asked what he thought, and he said, "I don't approve, but I accept you anyway." And I thought, "well, I don't approve either, but I'm trans anyway," because I wouldn't wish Gender Dysphoria on my worst enemy - because pretending to be someone I wasn't for 24 hours a day for many years was no fun. But neither was transitioning. I had my life threatened a couple times, because people could tell I was transgender (although I have no problem being accepted as a natal woman now - even though I've never had any facial feminization surgery). For the first few months after transitioning I was harrassed by "friends" who had known me before, and disowned by some of my relatives.

The last two Thanksgivings and the last Christmas that I lived in their state, my brother and sister "Un-invited me" to their celebrations."

 A couple years later, when I was living in another state, I went to visit my parents, and my father said, "You seem a lot happier now," and thought to myself, "Yes, the only acting I do now is when I'm paid to do it (as a Background Actress in Hollywood), instead of playing male for your entertainment, as I did for most of my life.

Even though I'm almost always apparently accepted as a natal woman,  I'm still very careful who I tell my history to, because even though I like the internet, I Really want to stay off the transgender web site  ***Remembering Our Dead .org***

I would definitely not go to your church.  You were not called by God to be a preacher.  And there will never be a Diagnostic Imaging and Brain Scanning equipment because you are not born this way.

 
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October 31, 2008, 8:09 pm PDT

"think about the children"

Quote From: tina_socal

 Countless transsexuals here and elsewhere have stated unequivocally that when someone is truly and profoundly  gender dysphoric, all the "guidance" and prayer in the world won't make it go away.

Gender therapists and researchers who approach the matter objectively will tell you the same thing.

Many, MANY transsexuals themselves have prayed sincerely over and over to have the condition go away so that they could be "normal", and it didn't change a thing; it simply doesn't go away.

Beatings/torture and other punishments don't work.

Drugs don't work, either when administered by doctors or as self-medication.

Shock therapy doesn't work.

Entering a "macho" profession like becoming an Army  Ranger or Navy Seal, or a fireman or police officer or an athlete doesn't work.

Getting married, fathering children and playing a typical male role doesn't work.

Transsexual people and those who know them intimately understand all this, yet people with no personal knowledge of the subject, no specific training in the psychology of gender, who in many cases have never even (knowingly) met or talked to a single transsexual pretend that they know better than transpeople themselves  what motivates them and how they think.

The sheer egotism of it all is infuriating and astonishing, especially coming from people who are admonished by their religious teachings to be humble and not sit in judgment of others.




If you are going to be a transexual, you shouldn't have children.  This makes it hard on the child and confuses them.  They shouldn't marry a woman knowing they want to be a woman.

 
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October 31, 2008, 8:20 pm PDT

it's how they were raised

Quote From: rupunzell

That children have no choice but to obey their parents in most cases along with the innate need to please their parents since their very survival depends on their parents supporting them. Parents hold an amazing amount of power and infulence over their children and most parents simply do not respect what they can do to affect their children's lives.
If you believe gender is taught, then how did you decide to be the gender you currently are? Unless you are born gender different there is no real way you could ever relate to children or individuals who are gender different. All you would be doing is simply projecting yourself upon them and forcing them to be as you are, not who they really are.

Like most all relationships, trust and respect are very significant aspects even in parent / child relationships. Do you own and control your children and their lives?

Children are far more aware and intelligent than most adults would believe or realize. I say this as a parent who has raised two of them.
this childs mother would not take him out to play.  Would not go anywhere where he could play with other children.  She and he would remain in PJ's all day and night.  The mother is a nocturnal person.....sleeps all day and games on the computer all night.  She only offered hm her Disney Princess collection, my little pony, and tinker bell toys.  I would take him out and run heavy equipment when he was with me.  He had the interest to rough house and play outside at the ages from one to two.  Things began to change and I was the only one who would see it.  The Grandmother and Aunt also played an important role in the situation.  The child explained to the pshycoligist what "mommy" had done as if it were ok and then everyone began to see things.  My son and I worked out of town and frankly, he was a non believer until now.  I believe that if the symptoms are acting out the actions of older girls then they have been learned.  It's not natural for any 4 year old to act out the actions of a teeh or woman.  4 year olds don't know about bras, make up, dresses and wigs........
 
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October 31, 2008, 8:21 pm PDT

he is a child...

Quote From: lola1021

Thank you for your support. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I DO NOT plan on giving my child hormone therapy until she is at least 12, and I am working with her Primary Care Physician.  We may not even give her hormone therapy, it really depends on how she feels and wants to enter puberty.  The hormones are only blockers.  No damage would be done.

 

 

THANK YOU TO ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!!!!

You should not even give your child hormone therapy at 12 yrs. old.  You are the parent and adult, and he is the child.  You make decisions for him.
 
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October 31, 2008, 8:30 pm PDT

their choice

Quote From: tina_socal

 In my town there is a nationally recognized musician named Mark Goffeney who was born with no arms.

He has adapted to this condition quite well, and does pretty much everything a person born with arms can do, including changing his three kids' diapers and playing guitar well enough to be featured on national TV doing  it.

I play guitar as well, and in all of my instruction and reading literature about playing guitar, I have never seen ANY mention of any protocols for playing the guitar with your feet, none whatsoever. I've never seen any mention of how to change a diaper with only your feet in a parenting book either- and of course the Bible is silent on either subject.

Any way you look at it, the way Mark does things that require picking up and manipulating things is *anything* but normal.

So- is Mark Goffeney simply "dexterity confused" because his manner of doing tasks that require it don't match the methods used by 99.999% of the rest of the world, and he ignores the limitations of his non-standard God given physical body??

Is a person who is born without legs and wants prosthetics to help him walk simply "mobility confused" and in need of counseling and prayer to get him to accept being someone who can't walk, "the way God made him"?

Is a child with Scoliosis merely "skeletally confused" if he wishes to have that condition corrected so that he can have a normal posture, unlike the twisted one God gave him?


These are physical handicaps.  They did not choose to have no arms or legs or a crooked back or spine.  A person that is transgender or transexual chooses to be that way.
 
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October 31, 2008, 8:41 pm PDT

it's simple...

Quote From: rupunzell

That children have no choice but to obey their parents in most cases along with the innate need to please their parents since their very survival depends on their parents supporting them. Parents hold an amazing amount of power and infulence over their children and most parents simply do not respect what they can do to affect their children's lives.
If you believe gender is taught, then how did you decide to be the gender you currently are? Unless you are born gender different there is no real way you could ever relate to children or individuals who are gender different. All you would be doing is simply projecting yourself upon them and forcing them to be as you are, not who they really are.

Like most all relationships, trust and respect are very significant aspects even in parent / child relationships. Do you own and control your children and their lives?

Children are far more aware and intelligent than most adults would believe or realize. I say this as a parent who has raised two of them.
It's simple - if you have a penis, you are a male.  If you have a vagina and breast, you are a female.
 
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October 31, 2008, 8:49 pm PDT

It's called a psychiatric DISorder for a reason

Quote From: zuzubird

I agree with those knowledgeable ladies who understand that a person is born with her sexual orientation, and should never be cast out or made to suffer because of it, any more than a heterosexual person should be.  It is not a choice; I know I did not choose to be heterosexual--I just turned out that way.  If a young child displays some gender confusion, we must lay off the God trips and accept the child for who she is at all stages of her life (or his, as the case may be).  The idea that God hates certain persons and loves others is a human idiosyncrasy, and it's wrong to frighten a youngster with this stuff. 
This condition is considered to be psychiatric in nature and is listed as a disorder (gender identity disorder). I'm sure these facts are obvious to most people on the board, but for some reason they have been largely disregarded. If something is considered a "disorder", it is implied that there is something wrong that needs to be treated/corrected. I can't think of any other psychiatric disorder (or any other disorder, period) in which professionals encourage the afflicted person to just cave in to the disorder and refuse treatment because it's "it's okay to be different". Nowadays, homosexuality is no longer considered a disorder (by a large portion of the medical community anyway), but a reflection of a difference. However, the fact that G.I.D. is still considered a disorder rather than a difference should say something. 

Not to mention, the fact that gender identity disorder is specifically listed as a PSYCHIATRIC disorder rather than a combination neuro-psychiatric condition further supports this point. If G.I.D. is truly the result of a biological condition, why is it not listed as a neuropsychiatric disorder, which would imply a biological base (while also acknowledging the obvious presence of psychological symptoms)? Even so, it's important to know that few psychiatric disorders (relatively speaking) are considered to be completely biologically based; therefore, the argument that people are born with a mental conception of gender that differs from their actual sex is extremely flawed.

It's not that I lack empathy for what people with G.I.D. Obviously, it's rough for anyone to have a psychiatric disorder - especially a disorder that carries such a strong social stigma. However, I don't believe that G.I.D. is something that is completely incurable. I also believe that a lot of the time, there are other events that have taken place which directly caused the disorder (or exacerbated it) that parents might not want to discuss because every parent wants to accept their child. If a child has been abused, no parent wants to think, "Gosh, my child now has a screwed up sense of identity because of the abuse." Parents would rather believe that their child has a biological condition that nothing can be done about....and in a way, I can't blame them for wanting to believe that because I imagine it would alleviate a whole lot of guilt.

Nowadays especially, parents have a tendency to give children far more decision making power than is appropriate (in other words, kids are way too spoiled). I'm sorry, but an 8-year-old cannot make major life decisions. Just because a child really feels strongly about something does NOT mean that that child is right about it, or that what the child wants is in his or her best interest. It's up to the PARENTS to decide that. It's painful for any parent to see their child unhappy, but caving in to a child's requests just because you don't want to see your child unhappy in the short-term is a reflection of lazy, irresponsible parenting.
 
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October 31, 2008, 9:12 pm PDT

No, it isn't that simple

Quote From: zookeeper1

It's simple - if you have a penis, you are a male.  If you have a vagina and breast, you are a female.
I already posted a very detailed rundown of intersex conditions where people who are genetically female are born with penises and people who are genetically male are born with vaginas, in response to your last post where you presented this laughably simplistic opinion.

You can keep repeating your ignorant pronouncements until you are blue in the face, and frankly I hope you do, because every time you repeat these scientifically unsound arguments you show exactly how little people like you care about the truth, and how far you are willing to go to demonize anyone who upsets your antiquated world view....and people who think will realize that you and your ilk are not to be trusted and have ulterior motives, or else you wouldn't need to lie about it.

Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome-

"The syndrome is caused by various geneticmutations on the X chromosome. The mutations make a developing male baby unable to respond to androgens. (Androgens are responsible formale physical characteristics.)

If the androgen insensitivity is complete, this prevents the development of the penis and other male body parts. The child is born appearing to be a girl. The complete form of the syndrome occurs in asmany as 1 in 20,000 live births."   



   

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001180.htm   



   

XX male syndrome-   


"XX male syndrome occurs when the affected individual appears as a normal male, but has female chromosomes."   



   

http://www.enotes.com/genetic-disorders-encyclopedia/xx-male-syndrome   



   

 I am now convinced that no amount of factual information will ever sway you from thinking that if you ignore these kinds of conditions they will cease to exist, but I include these links so that people who actually care about becoming educated before they speak can do so.
   



   


   


   






 
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October 31, 2008, 9:14 pm PDT

10/29 Gender Confused Children

I think it would be horrifying to feel/know you were a girl and look down and saw a penis between your legs.  And vise versa.  Welcome to your nightmare that few will understand.    You'd feel horribly betrayed and angry I'm sure.    What do you do?  Kill yourself or give in to the pressure from christians, so as not to upset, threaten or scare them.   Just a nightmare.   I"m surprised more are not choosing suicide.   Everyone deserves to be who *they* want to be.  Not who others *think* they should be.   All precious children who deserve love, compassion and understanding.  Not judgement or others imposing *their * belief system on them.    It breaks my heart the pressure adults with their own personal agendas put on them.  Sham on all of you who feel the need to control others out of your own pathetic fears.
 
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