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Topic : 07/03 School Discipline: Out of Control?

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Created on : Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 07:29:46 am
Author : DrPhilBoard1
(Original Air Date: 12/05/08) When you send your children to school, you expect them to be taught in a nurturing environment. But what should you do if you learn your child has experienced extreme discipline by those entrusted to teach him or her? Eva and Doug's autistic daughter, Isabel, was 8 years old when her teachers claimed her behavior became too difficult to handle, so they sent her to the time-out room. Cameras captured Isabel's time spent in isolation, which her parents say lasted for over three hours. Her parents say they had worked with the teachers regarding disciplining Isabel and were panicked and horrified when they saw the footage. Next, Martha says her 12-year-old daughter was in a classroom when $42 went missing. In an effort to find the money, a group of girls were strip-searched. You won't believe who reportedly ordered the investigation. Martha says her daughter is devastated and will never be the same. Then, when 5-year-old Gabriel constantly complained that his teacher was mean and yelled at him, his mom, Tabitha, sent him to school with a tape recorder in his pocket. Hear the audio recordings and find out the shocking information Tabitha discovered. Psychologist Ken Merrell, special education teacher Kathy Riley and civil litigation attorney Areva Martin weigh in on these cases. And, after years of being relentlessly bullied by fellow students, Jeremiah brought the torment to a tragic end. His father, Jeff, joins Dr. Phil and Jay McGraw to speak for the first time on television. Plus, if you're a teen and want to talk about what's happening at your school, join the Teen Talk message boards.

Find out what happened on the show.

As of January, 2009, this message board will become "Read Only" and will be closed to further posting. Please join the NEW Dr. Phil Community to continue your discussions, personalize your message board experience, start a blog and meet new friends.

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December 5, 2008, 9:43 pm PST

12/05 School Discipline: Out of Control?

Quote From: yanai8118

Let me begin by saying my heart goes out to those children who have been placed in these extreme situations. I would never do that to a child. As a teacher, the discipline situations in the classrooms have gotten out of hand. Children disrespect us everyday and we have to more or less take it. Teachers are cursed out, yelled at, and even punched for trying to offer a child an education. I will speak for myself, I am a teacher because I want to make a difference in this world, but what are we really teaching these children when they have no consequences for their actions?

 

I don't think it the schools' job to discipline a child - that should be the parents job and last time I checked the public schools still have telephone service. Pick up the phone and ask the parents to come down and collect their child. I promise you that will get more results than locking them in a room for 3 hours.
Ada
 
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December 5, 2008, 9:55 pm PST

We are many that have given up on public schools

Quote From: faithful032

Amen and Amen. I just pulled my 2 children out of the public school system 6 weeks ago because my daughter was being bullied. I chose to homeschool them both and love evey minute of it. I feel like I can make much more productive adults out of them if they are not being torn down on a daily basis and the teachers are unwilling to help.
We homeschool too and it has blessed our lives in ways we never could have imagined. We felt forced to homeschool  four years ago because our son has "issues" that we knew would never be fully addressed in public school. What we didn't realize is that we would gain is a better behaved and more harmonious child. We now see how sad public school are on so many levels.
Ada

 
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December 5, 2008, 10:08 pm PST

Teachers w/ power complex

Quote From: hulthen

I don't think it the schools' job to discipline a child - that should be the parents job and last time I checked the public schools still have telephone service. Pick up the phone and ask the parents to come down and collect their child. I promise you that will get more results than locking them in a room for 3 hours.
Ada
To the teacher,  it is not your job to be the kids mother it is YOU JOB however, to teach my child academics, not to humiliate and embararass him like his teacher does everyday and continues to not follow the rules that have been appointed to her by the special ed teachers and the principal, she knows she willget FIRED no matter what she does because she has been ther for 40 years.  By the way, my son does not have a dicipline problem, just a learning problem and that can't just be his fault when he is an 8 year old child.   Get off your HIGH horse and remember what you are getting paid for, to teach.....ANGRY and sad parent..................
 
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December 5, 2008, 10:16 pm PST

totally agree

Quote From: moodymitzy

Parents need to actually parent and discipline their kids and teachers need to actually teach instead of just handing out busy work and expecting the kids to teach themselves.
Haliluliah, don't know how to spell but high five to ya, i have always said that about the busy work bullcrap and the teaching theamselves, or us as parents teaching them at home when we are trying to parent and teach dicsipline and spend quality time with our kids but can't because we are too busy doing 3 hours of homework  every night....took the words right out of my mouth ...Thank you    ..Tara...Ohio
 
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December 5, 2008, 10:17 pm PST

12/05 School Discipline: Out of Control?

Quote From: hulthen

I don't think it the schools' job to discipline a child - that should be the parents job and last time I checked the public schools still have telephone service. Pick up the phone and ask the parents to come down and collect their child. I promise you that will get more results than locking them in a room for 3 hours.
Ada

I agree that the schools should call the parents also have in school detention. Where the children who act up go but are not left alone and have to do their schoolwork while in there.

 

The problem with calling parent sto pick up their kids is that half the time you can't get a hold of the parents because both parents are at work while thier kids are in school. Also there is a lack of disipline on the parents part. A lot of times kids do act up just so they can go home which is where want to be, so they can play their video games.

 
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December 5, 2008, 10:33 pm PST

Thank you Doug

Quote From: dougloeffler

 

To 'Connorsmom' and all other families that have gone through the fear, uncertainty and anxiety of having your child mistreated at school, I really feel for you since I'm Isabel's dad.  I wouldn't wish what happened to us or others like us on anyone in the world.  I appreciate your story about finding out that this is happening to other families.  After we learned about what was happening to our daughter and started t speaking to other parents we learned that other parents had had similar experiences.  Many of them had not fought this but had simply moved.  This was the right thing for them to do.  For us,  we decided the right thing for us was to do was to get to the bottom of this.   We fought to clear our daughter Isabel's name and keep this from happening to other families.  If it hadn't been for the tape we would have continued to believe that Isabel was the problem, not the school. 

 

Its nice in a sense that this topic is getting so much debate.  It really reveals the fears that many parents have that their child's education will be disrupted by 'special needs' kids.  I understand that.  My younger daughter is not handicapped and I have no desire to disrupt or hurt her education.  But it is an interesting fact that despite all of the pain that my younger daughter has suffered  along us, I am convinced that she is a better child and will be a better adult because of the relationship she has with her 'special' sister and the lessons she has learned from it.

 

I would like to 'set the record straight' in a couple of aspects that make most of the comments pretty far off base.

 

1.  Isabel was successfully educated in Colorado for four years-- no physical restraints, no seclusion, no severe problems.  She spent the vast majority of her day in general education classes and was thriving.

 

2.  When we moved to Iowa the school had a very different schedule, she was only with regular kids for lunch, PE, specials, and a bit in the morning.  Whenever she was in the regular education classes she had an aide.  She wasn't a burden to the general education teacher.  Almost all of her education was ONLY with other handicapped kids.  A FEDERAL COURT HAS RULED THAT THIS CHANGE IN PLACEMENT WAS ILLEGAL; THE SCHOOL'S DEFINITION OF 'INCLUSION' WAS SO OUTDATED THAT IT VIOLATED IOWA AND FEDERAL EDUCATION LAWS.

 

3.  Without our knowledge and contrary to Isabel's educational plan, the school started using physical restraint from SEVERAL STAFF MEMBERS to hold Isabel while she was coloring worksheets.  This wasn't an education, it was a punishment for huge crimes like "Refusing to take a break".  These episodes of restraint lasted on and off for over 1 hour on several occasions.

 

4.  When the timeout video was filmed, the timeout room ACTUALLY WAS ISABEL'S CLASSROOM. When the desk was there she would do her work.  If she refused a command they would take out the desk and she was in timeout.  There were several different tasks she had to do to be let out of timeout.  Non-handicapped children did not have to do these tasks.  She had to sit perfectly still on the floor for 5 minutes CONTINUOUSLY.  Even moving a hand or making a face made them reset the timer.  She then had to pull apart socks. She then had to finish work there.

 

5.  Before this video, the school had physically taken Isabel to the same room for similar timeouts, even though timeout was not in her plan at that time.  She had the same 5 minute sit perfectly still demand.  She wet herself almost immediately each time.  She slipped in her own urine, asked to change her clothes since her shirt was wet, but was told, "No, your job is to finish timeout."

 

6.  The school staff were trained in a very good program (Mandt System) to train them to avoid the need for restraint and to do 'safe' restraints only if necessary.  We were told in writing that the school was using this.  The CEO of the Mandt Training company told me that NOTHING that the school did was actually supported by his company's training.  Literally not a single thing.

 

7. As we were trying to figure out what was going on we took Isabel to not one or two but three full evaluations at the best hospital in Iowa. 

 

8.  An administrative law judge ruled that Isabel's education plan was illegal and wasn't even followed.  A FEDERAL COURT UPHELD THIS RULING AND THE SCHOOL HAS NOT APPEALED. The school did not give Isabel a legally appropriate education.

 

9.  My wife had to homeschool Isabel for 1 1/2 years as we tried to rehabilitate her.  She was diagnosed with PTSD and would initially become violent almost anytime we tried to get her to do something that looked like education.

 

10.  We successfully reintegrated Isabel in a California school last year.  She is now in her second year of school here.  Believe it or not, NOT A SINGLE MOMENT OF PHYSICAL RESRAINT OR SECLUSION. 

 

You figure it out.  Four successful years in Colorado.  Two successful years in California.  Two years of hell in Iowa. 

 

What all of us can do is to support education and our educators.  Congress has given them more responsibilities but hasn't provided the money to fund it.  I'm sure schools 'lose money' educating Isabel.  That isn't fair to other kids. 

 

If you want to learn more about the dangers of resraint in schools I urge you to check out the APRAIS website.  It gives you some information about the dangers of restraints, discusses positive alternatives, and provides resources to parents who are concerned about what may be happening to their child.

 

www.aprais.tash.org

 

If your child has an educational plan (IEP) and you have questions or concerns about this and/or are looking for someone to advocate for you, you might try the website www.copaa.org  This is the Council of Parent Advocates and Attornies and it focuses on special ed issues. 

 

If the publicity from the Dr. Phil Show helps only one other child in the country it will be worth it. 

 

Thanks,

 

Doug Loeffler

 

 

 

 

 

Doug,

Thank you for sharing what you & your family has been through, and what you have done to help your child and others.  My frustration was related to the beaurocracy of public education (after escalating the issue to the school district, the state's education department and the feds).  With every attempt at resolution resulting in referrals to the next step (... the next agency, the next department, etc), and private consultants, the only relief I could get for my child was to move him ASAP.  Ultimately, the resolution was a stroke of luck in finding a school with the right group of educational professionals to support the needs of EACH STUDENT they work with.  I can only hope that the next school my son attends has learned from the example that the elementary school leadership has displayed.  It all comes down to mutual respect and suspending judgement of the child and family.  (At least until one has walked in their shoes, so to speak.) 

 

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December 5, 2008, 11:02 pm PST

bullying

My name is Lori Kline, Im 49 years old. Starting in the 6th grade I was bullied on a daily basis. Here it is 30 years later and it still bothers me. Its something that stays with you the rest of your life. These  bullies are cowards and have low self-esteem. I have a 19 year old daughter, and when she was old enough to understand  I talked to her about bullies. I taught her that it is wrong to bully people and how it affected me. I told her all my "bully horror" stories so she would understand. Im so proud of my daughter, not only does she NOT bully anyone, she accepts people no matter what they are like. She has MANY friends of all "shapes and sizes".   She accepts them the way they are. I think it starts with the parents. No matter if you were bullied or not, you need to teach your kids that its wrong and to accept people the way they are because you want them to accept you the way you are. Im very very proud of my daugthter. She understood what I was trying to teach her, but  most important, Im  proud of myself for teaching her.
 
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December 6, 2008, 12:17 am PST

Walk 1 day in my shoes

I've been a teacher for 8 years now and it never surprise me at the miracles people want teachers to work. You have a classroom of 33 children 10 disciple problems, of that 10 , 5 specail eduaction students with atleast 10 modifications and 60 minutes to teach, grade papers, call home and tutor. Come on people we are just one person. School discpline has gone to the dogs. When will parents be forced to deal with these out of control children that they have created? When will school districts force these children to be removed from the classroom so that teachers can help those who can be taught. I want to see rules that require parents to miss work everytime their child keep me from doing my job. If i can't do my job because your child is a problem, then you should be required to miss your job. Until parents are held accountable for these undisciplined children test scores will continue to decline. Everyday, I work from 6:30 am to 5:00 pm. You never finish your work at school, you are then forced to take it home and work until 7-8 at night. Let's face it teahers get tired of that same problem everyday, 5 children that hinder 28 others from learning.
 
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December 6, 2008, 2:21 am PST

Same Here

Quote From: skenski

I have taught for over 8 years in an inner city school district located in the mid-west. Although I have heard stories  and seen news reports even locally similar to this show's examples, I have never experienced anything like that in the two schools I have taught at. What I have experienced is so out of control children and such little support from the district or parents I find it very difficult to teach the curriculum outlined by the district and the state. Currently I have 24 students and 3 of them are on specific behavior plans. These plans include tracking sheets that I must stay on top of and record each student's behavior sometimes as often as every 20 minutes! I must also reward behavior that simply complies to school and classroom standards sometimes as often as three times a day. Each student's behavior must be logged daily to document successess and failures. Each student has an agenda and behavior tracking sheets that must be completed with detailed descripitons of behavior for parents to read, sign and have returned daily. I am required to meet monthly with the parents and the team which help to set up these behavior plans. Now on top of this...I have 21 other children I am trying to teach, assess, grade papers, file, complete lesson plans, tutor, prepare for formal observations, and keep up parent contacts with. I do all this with no additional help. We have no aids or PARA's. I work from 6:30 in the morning to 6:30 at night, come in and work work for 5 hours every Saturday, and of course take work home with me every night. Yes, some teacher's and schools are NOT doing what is right by our children. Sometimes that is through poor disciplanary procedures, but most often its because of too much paperwork and too little time actually caring and teaching the children we are given the responsiblility to teach each year.

Bless your heart, I too have had 8 yrs experience in an inner city school.  I no longer teach and although I miss it; I don't miss this kind of mess.  The last year I worked I had 33 regular ed kids,  another 7 that were inclusion students from the BD class and 4 more from the mild/moderate class.  There was never a para.  Out of the 33 ten kids were 504 for behavior/academic issues.  I've been slapped, kicked, and threatened by both students and parents.  I've had to disarm students on two different occasions, testify in court, and have dealt with the police so much  that one jokingly suggested setting up a sub-station in the school. 

 

I found the "experts" take on the situations shown to be simple rhetoric.  As a classroom teacher I'm sure you found it to be the same.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard the buzz word, "best practices," I would be a rich lady today.   Classroom teachers need real support not just someone sitting in an ivory tower offering the current educational buzz words.

 

What I saw today was just plain wrong.  I totally understand these teachers' fustrations, but to allow a child to sit in her own urine, or belittle a 5 yr old in front of the class, (try that with an inner city kid and you'll see how street wise they really are), or to take an adolecent, who is inherently hyper-sensitive about her changing body, and strip search her, is far and beyond acceptable.  I have always told parents they are welcome to drop in my class anytime to quietly observe because what was going on in my room was an open book.  I understand that policy is not popular with most teachers because it can be disruptive, but it definately kept me on my toes, not that many parents/grandparents took me up on my offer.

 

PS.  Pat on the back for the parents who thought to send their son to school with the recorder.  Clever.

 
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December 6, 2008, 5:26 am PST

12/05 School Discipline: Out of Control?

Quote From: jerseygirl6646

dr phil i am worried that my 12yr old son may be experiencing the same thing.

he was a great student k-3. he was A honor roll and recieved many rewards.

he is a gifted young man.  he dosent like school anymore. he comes home everyday with

something going on at school. just 2 days ago 12-03-08  i revieved some info from tylor's classmates

that there was a sub art teacher that told him she would break his neck.

i am furrious and frustrated about this. i feel the system has failed my child. can you help me

 and my son to bring his love back? he is a very angry kid. i need help.

 thanks so much.      BRANDI

                                      NC

Pull him out and homeschool him. The "system" doesn't care about your child. Bring him home and teach him to love learning again.
 
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