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Topic : 10/07 The Latest Debates

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Created on : Friday, September 30, 2005, 03:40:18 pm
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Dr. Phil and his guests strike up heated conversations as they debate the latest hot topics. Should women give up their right to breastfeed their babies in public so other people don't feel uncomfortable? Will passing out condoms in schools prevent unwanted pregnancies or just send the message to kids that it's OK to have sex? And, is it acceptable for others to discipline your kids if they see them acting out in public, or should they just mind their own business? Dr. Phil weighs in on these controversial subjects. Share your thoughts, join the discussion.

 

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October 10, 2005, 2:48 pm PDT

Benefits beyond a year

Quote From: dr_joy

I'm laughing because the issue is not whether or not to breast feed -- it is whether we should do it rudely and disrespectfully or whether we should do it with kindness and respect of a multi-cultural America. One guest on the show said she had the right to be as rude and disrespectful as she wanted to be, and the other guest said that she thought people should be kind and respectful when in public. Easy to see the morally right answer - all relgions require us to be kind, and so does humanism. 

  

If you do a survey of what women find sexually attractive in men, many, if not most women, will say they consider a man's bare chest erotic, but there's no campaign to prevent men from going topless. Why should I have to cover up my chest in public then? It's called gender bias.  

  

Children who are breast feed after age 1 year are meeting their mother's emotional and psychological needs, not the mother meeting the child's needs, as any immunologist and scientifically based nutritionist will tell you.  

  

  

 Sorry, but you are simply wrong in stating that there is no benefit to the child from extended nursing.  Please have a look at this very informative article excerpted below, as well as the references cited therein. 

  

Extended Breastfeeding Fact Sheet 

By Kelly Bonyata, BS, IBCLC  

 http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextended/ebf-benefits.html 

  

  • The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that "Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child... Increased duration of breastfeeding confers significant health and developmental benefits for the child and the mother... There is no upper limit to the duration of breastfeeding and no evidence of psychologic or developmental harm from breastfeeding into the third year of life or longer." (AAP 2005)
  • The American Academy of Family Physicians recommends that breastfeeding continue throughout the first year of life and that "Breastfeeding beyond the first year offers considerable benefits to both mother and child, and should continue as long as mutually desired." They also note that "If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned." (AAFP 2001)
  • A US Surgeon General has stated that it is a lucky baby who continues to nurse until age two. (Novello 1990)
  • The World Health Organization emphasizes the importance of nursing up to two years of age or beyond (WHO 1992, WHO 2002).
  • Scientific research by Katherine A. Dettwyler, PhD shows that 2.5 to 7.0 years of nursing is what our children have been designed to expect (Dettwyler 1995).
  • Nursing toddlers between the ages of 16 and 30 months have been found to have fewer illnesses and illnesses of shorter duration than their non-nursing peers (Gulick 1986).
  • "Antibodies are abundant in human milk throughout lactation" (Nutrition During Lactation 1991; p. 134). In fact, some of the immune factors in breastmilk increase in concentration during the second year and also during the weaning process. (Goldman 1983, Goldman & Goldblum 1983, Institute of Medicine 1991).
  • Per the World Health Organization, "a modest increase in breastfeeding rates could prevent up to 10% of all deaths of children under five: Breastfeeding plays an essential and sometimes underestimated role in the treatment and prevention of childhood illness." [emphasis added]

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextended/ebf-benefits.html 

  

References: Immunological Benefits  

Immunological Protection by Kathryn Orlinsky  

Briend A, Wojtyniak B and Rowland MG. Breast feeding, nutritional state, and child survival in rural Bangladesh. Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1988 Mar 26;296(6626):879-82.  

Goldman AS et al. Immunologic components in human milk during weaning. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1983 Jan;72(1):133-4.  

Goldman AS, Goldblum RM, Garza C. Immunologic components in human milk during the second year of lactation. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1983 May;72(3):461-2.  

Gulick EE. The effects of breastfeeding on toddler health. Pediatr Nurs. 1986 Jan-Feb;12(1):51-4.  

Hamosh M. Bioactive factors in human milk. Pediatr Clin North Am 2001 Feb;48(1):69-86.  

Hamosh M, Dewey, Garza C, et al: Nutrition During Lactation. Institute of Medicine, Washington, DC, National Academy Press, 1991, pp. 133-140. This book is available free from the HRSA Information Center (look under Nutrition publications).  

Lawrence R and Lawrence R. Breastfeeding: A Guide for the Medical Profession, 5th ed. St. Louis: Mosby, 1999, p. 159-195. See particularly Table 5-2 on p. 169: "Concentration of immunologic components in human milk collected during second year of lactation"  

Palti H, Mansbach I, Pridan H, Adler B, Palti Z. Episodes of illness in breast-fed and bottle-fed infants in Jerusalem. Isr J Med Sci 1984 May;20(5):395-9.  

  

One of the resources cited above is Katherine Dettwyler, a biocultural anthropologist who has done extensive research on extended breastfeeding.  Her website is also extremely informative.  Here is an excerpt: 

  

"At this point (2005), all of the research that has been conducted on the health and cognitive consequences of different lengths of breastfeeding shows steadily increasing benefits the longer a child is breastfed up to the age of 2 years, and no negative consequences. No research has been conducted on the physical, emotional, or psychological health of children breastfed longer than 2 years. Thus, while there is no research-based proof that breastfeeding a child for 3 years provides statistically significant health or cognitive benefits compared to breastfeeding a child for only two years, there is no research to show that breastfeeding a child for 3 years (or 4-5-6-7-8-9 years) causes any sort of physical, psychological or emotional harm to the child. This has recently been confirmed in the 2005 American Academy of Pediatrics "Recommendations for breastfeeding the healthy term infant" (see below).  

... 

In conclusion, there is no research to support a claim that breastfeeding a child at any age is in any way harmful to a child . On the contrary, my research suggests that the best outcomes, in terms of health, cognitive, and emotional development, are the result of children being allowed to breastfeed as long as they need/want to. Around the world, most children self-wean between the ages of 3 and 5 years, but given that the underlying physiological norm is to breastfeed up to 6-7 years, it is quite normal for children to continue to breastfeed to this age as well, and the occasional "normally" developing child will nurse even longer. Children who nurse for more than a year or two tend to regard their mother's breasts as sources of love and nurturance and comfort, and are more or less immune to the broader society's attempts to culturally define breasts as sex objects. " 

  

I hope this information  dispells some of the misconceptions out there about nursing toddlers. 

 
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October 10, 2005, 2:51 pm PDT

I take my daughter out in public but she has bipolar

Quote From: momofbella

     Carla, the mom with 3 children and soon to have a fourth, really needs to get a clue.  You should not continue to have more children if you can't handle what you've already been blessed with. 

       I am absolutely appalled that she would say she can't control all 3 of them.  Then you know what?  Don't take your kids out in public if you know you cannot control their behaviour.  There is no reason people around her should have to deal with the lack of discipline she has created in her children's lives, and until she gets a grip on the reality that she needs to step up and get her children under control, people are going to continue disciplining her children, wrong as it may be.   

     Bottom line is that it is extremely frustrating when you are trying to go about your daily routine and it is interrupted by misbehaved children and even more irritating, the parent (like Carla) will just continue on as though nothing is going on.  It is absolutely ridiculous.      

      I hope she listens to Dr. Phil and finishes reading his book.  And let's hope she actually applies his methods to her life!   

I cannot always control her rages and "bad behavior"  It has nothing to do with what type of parent I am. Once she gets into "mission mode" thats it.. Nothing I do short of dragging her out a stor by the hair will have any affect on her. 

  

I know there are badly behaved kids out there, but unless you know the WHOLE story I woudln't give out this distasteful advise. Next time you see a mother out in public with a "misbehaved child" ask yourself if this child is healthy or mentally ill.  I look at these situations in a whole new light now that I have experienced first hand what it is to have a child with a mental illness. Be thankful for that God blessed you with a "normal" well behaved child. 

  

JMO 

 

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October 10, 2005, 2:55 pm PDT

No Condems at schools

I don't think schools should ever pass out condems to students!!!  I think Americans needs to stop depending on others about their domestic problems.  The main problem with teenage pregnancy is due to the lack of parenting and disciplain in this nation.  I think asking for school to pass out condem is just a way for some lazy and stressed out parents to have an excuse, and someone to blame if their teen daughter ever gets pregnant.  I was a wild teen once from a very strict family, and I remembered that I was always looking for any loopholes that would justify my wrongdoings.  If the school passes out condems to young children the message it sends is clearly that it's okay for them to have sex.  I know if condems were passed out at school during my teenage years, it would have been my perfect excuse to not feel guilty about having sex and disobeying my parents. 

 
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October 10, 2005, 3:02 pm PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

As the breastfeeding mom of a two year old, I would like to respond to the comments of many viewers who have written in suggesting that the solution to the nursing in public controversy is more discretion in the form of a blanket over the baby's head.  

  

To any experienced nursing mom, that suggestion merely illustrates that its proponent either never nursed, did not nurse beyond the pliable newborn stage, or had a miraculously unreactive child. In many moms' experiences, the usual result of deploying the vaunted blanket is a frustrated angry baby waving a flag to attract even more attention to the nursing pair than if mom had forgone the coverup.  

  

Without the blanket, it takes two or three seconds to latch a baby on to a breast. That is all of the window of opportunity to be offended by exposed flesh that there is (plus a second or two at the end while mom adjusts her clothing and closes up shop). The rest of the time, baby's head blocks the view.  

  

Add a blanket into the equation, which many babies will not tolerate, and you greatly expand the viewing opportunity as the annoyed little one pulls off the coverup, latches him or herself off the breast, and screams. In many cases, choosing to forego the blanket is discretion in its alternate meaning-- the mother's best judgment of how to effectively and unobtrusively accomplish the feeding of her hungry child.  

  

(Pumping isn't the panacea some people seem to think, either, as (a) not everyone can pump successfully, (b) using bottles can cause nipple preference, where the babe will prefer the faster flow rate from a bottle, and refuse to nurse from the breast, which can be the beginning of the end of nursing, (c) some babies just won't take a bottle and (d) expressed breastmilk, while still superior to formula, is not as good as milk directly from the breast, because it starts to break down outside the body.) 

  

As for those who are horrified that their children might witness a child nursing-- why not just explain that breasts are for feeding babies? Presumably you have had to explain that boys and girls have different private parts... Why is explaining that a breast is a girl part used for feeding babies such a burden? There is nothing shameful about it. Maybe if our sons and daughters are educated on the subject, the United States' shamefully low breastfeeding rate will improve with their generation.

 

 
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October 10, 2005, 3:12 pm PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: wpgangela

Yes, Mom, great strategy! You're teaching your boys to be filled with fear and disgust upon seeing a female's breast. Wow. I'm sure they'll all be great getting dates and not to mention those lucky ladies that eventually might choose to marry them one day. I am sure they will go on to someday have uncomfortable sex after much therapy and counseling, and perhaps even have children of their own. Then they can in turn feed those babies in shame and discomfort too. What's even better those children will learn too to be afraid and uncomfortable about their own bodies and so repeat the entire cycle for generations to come. Good idea. 

  

Angela 

  

PS. I am being SO very sarcastic here, I can't even express it enough. 

  

PPS. Children are born pure hearted, innocent and uncorrupted. The responsibility of a parent is to teach their children. You essentially start with a clean slate. Parents make choices everyday about how to influence, teach and guide their kids. I know I will be very careful and aware of what I decide to teach my kids. I will strive everyday to make sure my lessons are positive in nature. (IE, naked people are not evil, just merely naked.) I am not willing to pass alone my negative, destructive and corrupt "hang-ups" and impose my will upon theirs. Did you perhaps stop to consider that when your children say they are uncomfortable with any particular situation that it leaves you an open window to discuss it frankly and openly with them first? To explore the possibilities and teach them with loving guidance all of the possible positive ways of framing their concerns, and then letting them decide for themselves what they think or feel? Kids are very smart and not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. They don't need adults to think for them. They sure don't need narrow minded negative adults imposing their ill wills on them. The only reason why a child would ever be ashamed of nudity of any degree is if it was somehow TAUGHT that way to them. By you or anyone else. (It's understandably common for sexual abuse victims to have this viewpoint for example.) I don't think that truly your children are uncomfortable with Nursing in Public, anyhow. I think YOU are. I think you should seek out help if you are infact threatened by a nude human form for whatever reason. Especially if all it takes to send you over the deep end is just the sight of a tiny portion of a BF'ing mothers breast that is only exposed temporarily and only for a very practical (and essential,) use. Get help for yourself if this seems so. If your children have been corrupted and taught that boobs are disgusting for whatever reason, again, find them help. It could be quite serious. (No kidding here, I mean this.) 

You know,  I wanted to say something else to you after I thought more about what you had said and my reply.  I am sorry, this is obviously a very important issue to you, and though I don't agree with you on it, you are entitled to your opinion as am I.  It hurt my feelings that someone who doesn't know me would tell my children might be corrupted, etc. because we teach modesty in our home.  I think very VERY highly of moms who breastfeed, and I do wish it had worked out that I could have done it.  I do, also, however think I am a good mother to my own three children and there are many important things we do as parents to raise our children in the way we think is best for them, and nursing is only one of those things.   

I am sorry for having come back so rudely to you, we moms should be supporting each other and our choices, knowing that we are all doing what we think is best for our children.  We love them, they are a part of us, and as they grow older, we need each others' support, not condemnation.  Please know I am proud of you for breastfeeding, and I respect your opinion as well as my own. 

  

  

 
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October 10, 2005, 3:13 pm PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: tammyo1973

I cannot always control her rages and "bad behavior"  It has nothing to do with what type of parent I am. Once she gets into "mission mode" thats it.. Nothing I do short of dragging her out a stor by the hair will have any affect on her. 

  

I know there are badly behaved kids out there, but unless you know the WHOLE story I woudln't give out this distasteful advise. Next time you see a mother out in public with a "misbehaved child" ask yourself if this child is healthy or mentally ill.  I look at these situations in a whole new light now that I have experienced first hand what it is to have a child with a mental illness. Be thankful for that God blessed you with a "normal" well behaved child. 

  

JMO 

*Hugs* Again, it's something you just can't understand until you've been a mom. I try very hard to keep my kids from acting up in public, but just because a tantrum could come at any time from a 2-year-old doesn't mean I'm going to stay home all the time. When i see a mom whose child is having a tantrum, I see what I can do to help. I was at a coffee shop once, and a mom was laden with packages and trying to get her 2-year-old out the door. The little girl just kept running away, giggling, the mom didn't want to put her packages down, but she finally dropped them all over the place to catch her 2-year-old. People just sat there and gave disapproving looks, no one offered to help. I asked her if I could help carry her packages to the car, she gave me a grateful look and said yes, I smiled at the little girl and engaged her some (I didn't offer to hold her hand, because I felt that would be inappropriate, so I took the packages while the mom took care of her child), and I helped her get out to the car. Everyone else got to return to their quiet lunches. I have BTDT too many times, and my kids don't even have any kind of mental illness or disability! Kids are kids, and most parents are doing the best they can. There are some who don't teach their kids boundaries, or who drag their kids around far beyond what is reasonable to expect from a tired and hungry child, but sometimes it's just beyond your control.
 
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October 10, 2005, 3:14 pm PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: lannister

And the loud, vocal minority that make up the breastfeeding activists have been very quick to criticize bottlefeeding moms.  I spent the early years of both my children's lives sitting there and listening to the loudmouths who couldn't wait to tell me how I had jeopardized my kids' health and future by not breastfeeding.   

  

I didn't say I wanted laws.  You really have to stop saying I said things I didn't say.  Especially when anyone can still read what I wrote.  

  

I said I wanted to hear one breastfeeding mom say my choice was equally as valid as hers.  I've said over and over again that breastfeeding moms have my support and respect, and only ONE breastfeeding mom who had previously been a bottle feeding mom showed any support or respect.   

  

The rest of you have done nothing but spout half-arsed and badly interpreted propaganda at me in order to make me feel as if I shortchanged my children.   

  

  

You know what?  Forget it.  Forget any support or respect I had for any of you.  Next time I see a breastfeeding mom in public, I won't smile or show support or show any happiness and genuine joy in seeing a mother and child.  I'll just frown and snarl and show my disgust, and I'll complain in restaurants when I see you, and in parks, and in museums, and anywhere you are.   

  

So much for supporting choice and motherhood.  Guess I learned my lesson.  

  

You are very angry, but it doesn't have anything to do with me or anyone spreading 'propaganda'.  Again, WHY does the medical community STRONGLY recommend bfing?  Answer that please.  On a personal level, I don't care if you chose to ff, but why would you need me to validate that for you?  Choosing to ff when you can provide bm is an inferior choice.  (I did not call you an inferior parent).  I make plenty of inferior choices every day, and I can admit it.  I know you can't understand what I am saying b/c you are highly defensive, but there it is.  An inferior choice does not make an inferior parent, but formula is inferior to bm whether you like it or not.   Why is bfing recommended over ffing?  (not by me, but by the medical community) If you can answer that, then I'll tell you that IRL, I don't give a flying flip how people feed their babies.  I am debating here and defending my position with facts.   Big difference.    The choice to ff when you can provide bm is an inferior choice, it is what it is.  I turned my ds around to a forward facing carseat before he hit 20#, I made an inferior choice.  I can accept that.  Work with me here!
 
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October 10, 2005, 3:19 pm PDT

Breastfeeding in Public

The subject of BF is very important in my life right now b/c I just had a baby.  Learning to BF is not easy, thus I'm very reluctant to be out in public right now.  I'm reluctant b/c I feel like there is not a great deal of support for BF in public.  I'm afraid of offending people, even though I know that I am merely providing nourishment to my new baby.  I was disappointed with the show b/c I thought Dr. Phil would promote education on the subject and thus provide enlightment on both sides of the issue.  Instead, both sides were adamant about their positions without providing the reasons why they were so passionate about their feelings.  The woman who was against BF in public never did say what it was about BF that was so unappealing and the other woman did not take the opportunity to explain the many reasons why women BF.  If Dr. Phil would have probed further, and an explanation was provided about the many benefits of BF, its support among the medical community, and its support world-wide, then perhaps more people would understand why people like myself choose to BF and wouldn't be so put-off when they see a child being nourished by his/her mother's breast.  People keep referring to women "exposing" themselves-- the word seems inappropriate b/c women are not trying to be exhibitionists (in fact, I doubt most women want their breasts being sexualized by strangers while they are trying to focus on the well-being of their child).  However, there are logistics to BF, which I am acutely aware of as I'm learning to BF my son.  People need to be educated that BF does not come naturally to all, or even most, women.  Logistically, there is a latch-on that needs to be learned, there are positions that need to be learned, etc-- so sometimes I am not able to be as discreet as I would like to be b/c otherwise I would not be BF correctly.  So, especially for the sake of us newbies at BF and our newborns,  I suggest Dr. Phil do another show on this that does actually promote education, and thus tolerance, on the subject.
 
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October 10, 2005, 3:26 pm PDT

10/07 The Latest Debate

Someone on the show said that breast feeding was a natural act so it should be allowed in public.  My reply is that there are many natural acts that are not allowed in public.  Workers on a local construction crew were ticketed and had to go to court for urinating in public.  They had their backs to anyone that could have viewed this act so nothing was actually seen.  How is this any different? The breast feeding mom said that she couldn't wait until she got to someplace private to breastfeed.  She was going to fulfill her sons needs immediately.  How is this any different for the workers who are sometimes miles from the nearest bathroom and have the urge? Sex is also a very natural act but no one is allowed to do this in public.  I do not see any problem with excusing yourself to a private place to breast feed.   

  

LS 

 
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October 10, 2005, 3:29 pm PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: cdnloon

 I think breastfeeding is a wonderful thing to do for a baby in the beginning of life. I do notice that many breast feeding moms who insist  on being  so public about it  have lost their ability to consider other people around them .Dr Phils point about social sensitivity was a great one. Not only are there people who do not want to watch this process but there are also people who may be hurt by it....Perhaps they have lost a child or have tried to have  children without success. I think ALL breast feeding moms who INSIST on being so public  without benefit of coverup are spoiled individuals who will eventually teach that same quality to their child. .... Instant gratification at any cost.! 

   I have one other comment about breastfeeding. NO CHILD over 8 or 9 months should be breastfed in public. They are old enough to use a cup. If you wish to continue the benefits of breast milk, either put it in a cup or provide a morning or evening feed if you feel it necessary. 

I take issue with the statement, "NO CHILD over 8 or 9 months should be breastfed in public... If you wish to continue the benefits of breastmilk... provide a morning or evening feed if you feel it necessary."  What is your basis behind this statement?   

  

The following is a quote from the World Health Organization -  

 

"Breastfeeding is an unequalled way of providing ideal food for the healthy growth and development of infants; it is also an integral part of the reproductive process with important implications for the health of mothers.  A recent review of evidence has shown that,  on a population basis, exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months is the optimal way of feeding infants. Thereafter infants should receive complementary foods with continued breastfeeding up to 2 years of age or beyond." 

 

You can read more here - http://www.who.int/child-adolescent-health/NUTRITION/infant_exclusive.htm 

 

 
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