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Topic : 10/07 The Latest Debates

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Created on : Friday, September 30, 2005, 03:40:18 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1

Dr. Phil and his guests strike up heated conversations as they debate the latest hot topics. Should women give up their right to breastfeed their babies in public so other people don't feel uncomfortable? Will passing out condoms in schools prevent unwanted pregnancies or just send the message to kids that it's OK to have sex? And, is it acceptable for others to discipline your kids if they see them acting out in public, or should they just mind their own business? Dr. Phil weighs in on these controversial subjects. Share your thoughts, join the discussion.

 

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October 11, 2005, 11:24 am PDT

Wrong post

Quote From: materdequi

Yes I breastfed in Church all the time.   

  

So you would propose I should haul myself and my other kids out to the car because the baby is hungry, get in the car, turn on the car and run the a/c and/or heat and nurse the baby and return to church just in time for church to get over?  While the rest of the kids go bonkers with boredom, climb the seats and poke at each other because mom is too tied up in the front seat to discipline?  Get real.  I've actually walked up to receive Holy Communion while nursing a baby.  Most people had no clue and if they did so what?  Babies who are nursing do not cry, it is about the only way I can get them to be not fussy during Mass.   

  

I've never been to Disneyland but I have nursed at a zoo, also while walking around.  Would you rather I haul myself and my kids to the car while my baby nurses for the better part of an hour?  Whatever.   

  

As for pumping and feeding a baby I only did that for absolute necessities like having to work outside the home.  Feeding a bottle to a baby is a pain, you have to worry about refridgeration, etc. hauling a bottle around.  Your breast doesn't need refridgeration and you don't need a special bag to carry it around! 

  

As for the tent/burqua thing it is just one more pain in the behind thing to carry around, plus my kids hated it and it just drew more attention to me.   

I think you meant to quote the original poster since you and I are in agreement on this...
 
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October 11, 2005, 11:28 am PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: treereach

 Right, and 'correlations' of having less breast cancer and 'correlations' of having less ear infections, leukemia, colic, respiratory infection, bacterial meningitis, diarrea, necrotizing entercolitis. 

Tell us again, you are not prosyletizing????

You obviously have the idea that bottle-feeding is as good as breastfeeding. Which is fine for you. Especially since you bottle-fed.

But trying to say that scientific studies don't mean anything at all is doing a great disservice to people.   Many people are preyed upon, to buy expensive medical treatments, for example, that are told 'scientific studies don't mean anything!!', 'it's personal experience that counts'.  

Even an undergraduate level science course will straighten you out on that.


Look proselytizing up in the dictionary.  I am not proselytizing.   

  

I was responding to another poster about a question she had about my post.  Read the original post.  That should explain things. 

  

In _this particular_ study, which is ALL I was commenting on, I showed that the conclusion that breast milk increased IQ was not true.  Nor does the study itself claim that this is the conclusion.  But a person on this message board did.  So I corrected them.  The study showed a correlation that could have been caused by several other factors besides or in addition to breast milk. 

  

What part of this are you not getting, and why are you making it your personal mission to attack everything I say? 

  

Why do you take everything I say out of context and why do you claim I said things I never said? 

  

Yes, bottle feeding worked out fine for me.  And, because it did, and because of my personal set of experiences, I am very leary of statistic-spouting extremists.  These are my claims.   

  

I never said scientific studies mean nothing at all.  This is one more example of you saying I said something I never said. 

  

 I said that _this_ study did not conclusively show that breast milk alone was proven to increase IQ.   

  

That's what I said. 


Go back and read it. 

  

I also said that one cannot say that, because breastfeeding in some women may decrease their risk of  certain cancers, bottle feeding increases their risk for those cancers.  That is not the way reputable scientists interpret data.  To imply that a woman will increase her chances of cancer because she didn't breastfeed is misleading and manipulative.  She may (emphasis on 'may") decrease her risk by breastfeeding, but her risk doesn't change at all if she bottle feeds.  

  

Now stop claiming I said things I never said.   

 

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October 11, 2005, 11:29 am PDT

Wrong post

Quote From: petrosky

I need a good laugh.  Microbes?!?!?!  Oh please!!!!!!!  I'd be a little more concerned about the large percentage in the general population that doesn't wash hands after a bathroom trip (been all over the news lately) touching the table I'm sitting at. 

  

Forget worrying about Avian Flu and the pandemic or bioterrorism...it's those nursing moms who are going to do us all in!!!!!! 

I think you meant to quote the original poster instead of my post since you and I are in agreement on this... 

 
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October 11, 2005, 11:31 am PDT

Missed them?

Quote From: lannister

And, btw, I listed possible reasons that might also have factored into the results...how could you have missed them? 

  

  

What makes you think I missed them? I don't even dis-agree with them. Usually though, points like those are brought up when a study contradicts one's preconceptions to explain away unwanted results. Why do you think this study is inconclusive? What if many, many studies have the same results. I really don't know how many have been done or what percentage shows this result.

One you didn't mention... maybe it's heredity. Smart mothers have smart babies and smart mothers breast-feed. Not that I'm saying that it's true, mind you. Just another example of what COULD skew the results.

It sure seems like SOME conclusion is possible. Maybe only tentative or preliminary.

It's neither here nor there buy my wife BF our son for about two years. Nothing but her milk for the first year. His IQ is over 140 but that proves nothing, he probably got that from me. Well, not really. I've read that boys get their intelligence primarily from their mother, girls from both. The best thing was that I didn't have to get up for middle of the night feeding and it was so much easier not having to lug all the bottles and stuff all over the place. She did it most every where and I seldom saw any skin at all.  Except at home, of course. Certainly much less than when she wore a swim suit, a modest one at that.
 
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October 11, 2005, 11:33 am PDT

Mothers who support mothers

Quote From: mama2twobf

La Leche League is not a club. La Leche League is a non-profit organization that reaches more than 300,000 people every month with breastfeeding information, education, and support. There is a network of 3,000 Groups and 8,000 Leaders who offer information and encouragement to mothers who want to breastfeed. Leaders VOLUNTEER their time, money, efforts and compassion. There are many countries and people who breastfeed beyond a year. The WHO reccomends that you breastfeed for "atleast 2 years". The AAP currently changed their reccomendation from 'up to a year' to the more current "ALEAST a year and then there after as mutually desired." Breastfeeding beyond a year is NOT just done in developing nations like on the continent of Africa. For more scientific information regarding extended breastfeeding see Kathyrn Dettwyler's website. She has researched this topic for many years and has much good information. PEACE!
I agree, La Leche League (http://www.lalecheleague.org) is not a group full of mean extreamist. (You can find extreamists in LLL and also outside of LLL.) It is usually just moms helping other moms.
 
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October 11, 2005, 11:35 am PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: seamama

If anybody's got an agenda it's the forumla companies, right?  They directly profit from the sale of artificial milk.  How do the people responsible for the links I gave you profit?  Anyway, if you'd like more "neutral" site to why breastmilk is better, here you go... 

  

From the FDA, http://www.fda.gov/fdac/reprints/breastfed.html : 

  • " ...the best first food for babies is breast milk."
  • " Health experts say increased breast-feeding rates would save consumers money, spent both on infant formula and in health-care dollars. It could save lives as well."
  • "The composition of infant formula is similar to breast milk, but it isn't a perfect match, because the exact chemical makeup of breast milk is still unknown."
  • " Human milk contains living cells, hormones, active enzymes, immunoglobulins and compounds with unique structures that cannot be replicated in infant formula."
  • "Human milk contains at least 100 ingredients not found in formula. "
  • "Sucking at the breast promotes good jaw development as well. It's harder work to get milk out of a breast than a bottle, and the exercise strengthens the jaws and encourages the growth of straight, healthy teeth. "
  • "There are very few medical reasons why a mother shouldn't breast-feed, according to Lawrence."
  • "...adverse reactions to the protein in cow's milk formula or symptoms of lactose intolerance (lactose is the carbohydrate in cow's milk) may require switching to another type of formula... "

  

From the American Academy of Pediatrics, http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b100/6/1035 : 

  • " Human milk is uniquely superior for infant feeding and is species-specific; all substitute feeding options differ markedly from it. "
  • "The AAP identifies breastfeeding as the ideal method of feeding and nurturing infants and recognizes breastfeeding as primary in achieving optimal infant and child health, growth, and development. "
  • "When direct breastfeeding is not possible, expressed human milk, fortified when necessary for the premature infant, should be provided.78,79 Before advising against breastfeeding or recommending premature weaning, the practitioner should weigh thoughtfully the benefits of breastfeeding against the risks of not receiving human milk. "

 By the way, EVEN forumla companies admit that breastmilk is better.  For example, see: Nestle Good Start, http://www.verybestbaby.com/content/article.asp?section=fb&id=2001101124421575717469 :  

  • " Experts agree—your breastmilk is the best source of nutrition for your baby during the first year." 

  

Yes, but it's interesting how the legitimate, mainstream sources don't manipulate data into scare tactics and erroneous conclusions, isn't it? 

  

I never claimed breast milk was bad.  I never said it wasn't beneficial.  I never said that, for some children, it may be an important factor in their overall health. 


What I said was that for me and for many other women, bottle feeding wasn't detrimental and that our children turned out just as well or better than the breast fed kids.   

  

I do take exception to sources that impy that women will give themselves cancer if they don't breastfeed.  That is a deliberately false interpretation of date that is meant to frighten women and make them feel guilty, and any source that uses that tactic is not  a legitimate source.  

 
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October 11, 2005, 11:41 am PDT

breastfeeding

I'm not going to debate breastfeeding  versus bottle because that's not what the show was about.  The question is to do it in public or not.  I get fed up with the portrayal of all nursing mothers as flashing and in your face.  I nursed both my girls whenever and wherever they decided they were hungry.  But it was done so discreetly that most people probably were not even aware of what I was doing.  There is no need to remove yourself because your child is hungry, but there is also no need to make other people uncomfortable.
 
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October 11, 2005, 11:42 am PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: kohathi

What makes you think I missed them? I don't even dis-agree with them. Usually though, points like those are brought up when a study contradicts one's preconceptions to explain away unwanted results. Why do you think this study is inconclusive? What if many, many studies have the same results. I really don't know how many have been done or what percentage shows this result.

One you didn't mention... maybe it's heredity. Smart mothers have smart babies and smart mothers breast-feed. Not that I'm saying that it's true, mind you. Just another example of what COULD skew the results.

It sure seems like SOME conclusion is possible. Maybe only tentative or preliminary.

It's neither here nor there buy my wife BF our son for about two years. Nothing but her milk for the first year. His IQ is over 140 but that proves nothing, he probably got that from me. Well, not really. I've read that boys get their intelligence primarily from their mother, girls from both. The best thing was that I didn't have to get up for middle of the night feeding and it was so much easier not having to lug all the bottles and stuff all over the place. She did it most every where and I seldom saw any skin at all.  Except at home, of course. Certainly much less than when she wore a swim suit, a modest one at that.

Why do I think this study is inconclusive?  Because it cannot isolate breast milk as the sole factor that is responsible for the slight increase in IQ in this set of children. 

  

That's why. 

  

You can repeat the study ten thousand times and the end result will be the same.  The only way you can refine the study is if you find a way to isolate breast milk alone and if you find a way to study the same children as breast fed and then as bottle fed with all other factors remaining equal.  Impossible. 

  

You can't breast feed a baby and then reverse its age and put it back in its mother's womb, re-birth it and then bottle feed it.  

  

The only conclusion is that breast milk may be a factor for an increase in some children's IQ, but if the other factors that were present in this study are not present in other children's lives, they may show no increase at all. 

  

Yes, genetics, heredity, cultural priorities, family interaction -- I'm sure we could extend the list to dozens of factors.  Which is why saying this study proved that breast milk increases IQ is erroneous and misleading.  

  

You would have to do a different study if you wanted to isolate factors in the parents.  This study only focused on the children. 

  

Convenience of breastfeeding and your wife's bathing suit have absolutely no bearing on the study at all.  

 
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October 11, 2005, 11:46 am PDT

10/07 The Latest Debates

Quote From: seamama

If anybody's got an agenda it's the forumla companies, right?  They directly profit from the sale of artificial milk.  How do the people responsible for the links I gave you profit?  Anyway, if you'd like more "neutral" site to why breastmilk is better, here you go... 

  

From the FDA, http://www.fda.gov/fdac/reprints/breastfed.html : 

  • " ...the best first food for babies is breast milk."
  • " Health experts say increased breast-feeding rates would save consumers money, spent both on infant formula and in health-care dollars. It could save lives as well."
  • "The composition of infant formula is similar to breast milk, but it isn't a perfect match, because the exact chemical makeup of breast milk is still unknown."
  • " Human milk contains living cells, hormones, active enzymes, immunoglobulins and compounds with unique structures that cannot be replicated in infant formula."
  • "Human milk contains at least 100 ingredients not found in formula. "
  • "Sucking at the breast promotes good jaw development as well. It's harder work to get milk out of a breast than a bottle, and the exercise strengthens the jaws and encourages the growth of straight, healthy teeth. "
  • "There are very few medical reasons why a mother shouldn't breast-feed, according to Lawrence."
  • "...adverse reactions to the protein in cow's milk formula or symptoms of lactose intolerance (lactose is the carbohydrate in cow's milk) may require switching to another type of formula... "

  

From the American Academy of Pediatrics, http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b100/6/1035 : 

  • " Human milk is uniquely superior for infant feeding and is species-specific; all substitute feeding options differ markedly from it. "
  • "The AAP identifies breastfeeding as the ideal method of feeding and nurturing infants and recognizes breastfeeding as primary in achieving optimal infant and child health, growth, and development. "
  • "When direct breastfeeding is not possible, expressed human milk, fortified when necessary for the premature infant, should be provided.78,79 Before advising against breastfeeding or recommending premature weaning, the practitioner should weigh thoughtfully the benefits of breastfeeding against the risks of not receiving human milk. "

 By the way, EVEN forumla companies admit that breastmilk is better.  For example, see: Nestle Good Start, http://www.verybestbaby.com/content/article.asp?section=fb&id=2001101124421575717469 :  

  • " Experts agree—your breastmilk is the best source of nutrition for your baby during the first year." 

  

BTW -- I already pointed out earlier on this thread that formula companies included positive information about breastfeeding in their advertising and on their websites.
 
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October 11, 2005, 11:50 am PDT

IN all honesty

Quote From: mommyof5

Saying that breastfeeding is a "choice" is like saying that it is a choice to have my body produce insulin. My body simply produces insulin, I would have to choose to not use it and force my body to stop producing it. Of course insulin can be replaced in those that have diabetes, but if you were physically capable of making it you would not force your body to stop making it just to then replace it with a manufactured version. It is the same with breastfeeding, the vast majority of those that bottle feed are physically capable of producing milk. 

  

Again it would be like saying using your own insulin and testing your blood sugar then injecting yourself with insulin both have different advantages. 1.5 million babies die each year because they are not breastfed. Don't pretend they are at all equal. BTW, breastfeeding protects against diabetes. 

  

I find it hard to believe that your non breastfed daughters breastfeed their dolls, to be honest with you. My daughters do also, but they are also influenced by our culture. You would be hard pressed to find a baby doll that does not come with a bottle, they are taught in school to bottlefeed and I didn't see Dora the Explorer's mom breastfeeding those new twins. If even my girls succomb to it in a family where all their relatives BF ( their aunt and I are currently BFing), we don't allow bottles in the house, we boycott Nestle, we own shelves of BFing books including kids books... 

  

Education is key... but I will not lie to my daughters or sons and tell them bottlefeeding is a great option. 

My youngest daughter doesn't watch Dora the Explorer. We know the character because of other children we know, but don't have a clue about what is on the program. Dora was non existent when my oldest daughter was younger. We don't watch much t.v in our home, as we prefer to read. 

  

In our area, bottle feeding is not taught in school. In the junior high and high school courses, breastfeeding is encouraged and promoted. Personally, I believe that should be taught at home and not at school. It sounds like you are doing your job very well,as a mom, by teaching your standards and sticking to your convictions. 

  

No one is asking you to lie to your children, but don't you think it is dishonest not to give them all the facts?  

I know many women who have adopted babies. Many others I know have illnesses, or have had breast reductions, or mastectomies, and are unable to breastfeed. Some have fibroid tissue which inhibits milk production, some take medications which would be harmful to baby. There are many reasons that babies may not be able to BF or that mama's would not be able to offer that.  

  

  

I prefer my children to know all the facts and to be able to make reasonable choices. I hope they will not feel pressured to do what they are not comfortable with, which ever choice they make. And absolutely, my daughters have tried to breastfeed their baby dolls. They have always seen my in laws breastfeeding, and it has been a curiosity for them. Not an issue here. I know that some think that is the only way to go, and some breastfeed  for economic reasons.For some, it is about convenience, and some it is about laziness. Still other women are brought up believeing that they HAVE to breastfeed.Not all women breastfeed for the same reasons,and not all women bottlefeed for the same reasons.  

  

And so far as facts are concerned. There are so many "studies" on breastfeeding,diabetes, SIDS,cancers...(for just a few examples) and each one will say something different. Just yesterday I read that the AMA  has done a study that shows pacifiers decrease incidences of SIDS. I don't believe that, but they say "studies have proven that.." 

  

I have worked in the childcare profession for many years, dealing with infants and toddlers.Not once have I had to deal with  the experience of a baby dying due to being bottle fed. It has been my experience however, to see babies who were losing weight and dehydrated due to not getting enough milk from their mother's breast. These mama's have been totally devastated by this,since clearly they believed they were doing the best for their babies. 

  

 When it comes to diabetes being caused by bottle feeding, I certainly will never believe that.  4 out of 6 of my husbands family memebers are diabetics, and they were all breastfed.My family does not yet have any diabetics.  According to other studies that have been done, diabeties has a genetic factor--runs in the family.  

  

Breastfeeing was once said to prevent uterine cancers, now the current findings are that breastfeeding has nothing to do with uterine cancers.  

  

So as you can see, I don't place any value on studies. Nor will I equate diabetes to the choice of how to feed a baby.   

  

one quick question: do you allow your children to believe that santa brings them toys? what about the Easter bunny? These are both lies perpetrated by most well -intentioned parents in our society.  

  

Thank you for sharing your view in a non threatening way and for holding to conviction.  

 
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