Topic : 06/06 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Here are a few questions for  sbministri : Did you, sir, have physiological sexual attraction sensations down inside your lower body, even when you were not even thinking about sex, and those feelings directed at other men in the immediate vicinity? 

  

Did you, sir, have physiological sexual attraction sensations down inside your lower body, even when you were not even thinking about sex, and those feelings directed at women in the immediate vicinity during the same time period? 

  

If you answer "yes" to both of those questions, you were not a homosexual nor a heterosexual. But, in experiencing physiological sexual attractions to both genders, you had to be bisexual in your sexual orientation. 

  

Now to the next question if it was "yes" to the first question and "no' to the second question: 

  

You wrote that you are now a heterosexual man; so, have all of the physiological sexual attractions toward other men stopped? Are all of your physiological sexual attractions directed at women only now?  

  

If you no longer experience those kinds of sexual attractions toward men and they are only directed toward women, then you can rightly claim that you are now exclusively heterosexual in your sexual orientation.  

  

In my study of the ex-gay/ex-homosexual/sexual-change-ministry of the umbrella group, "Exodus International, since the latter 1970s, and groups connected with it, as well as the homophobic pseudo-psychology outfit called "NARTH, I have yet to encounter a so-called testimony of anyone whose sexual orientation has been changed, neither by professionals nor by God Himself. Every one of those 100s of testimonies, officially sanctioned by Exodus International, that I have read have a loophole in them which either proves that the person giving the testimony was never exclusively homosexual in the first place, or he or she was either heterosexual looking for love in the wrong places or was just bisexual to begin with . . . or is still one who is a homosexual attempting to fool others that he or she is heterosexual.  

  

Sir, you do contradict yourself. In regard to the mountains of research supposedly proving that homosexuality develops over a period of time, from what I know as a person who has had a lot of classes in psychology and counseling and as a person who has done professional style educational research on those research studies and their sources, the people making those claims have been discredited and shown that their reports are false. Many of those whom the religious right put up as "experts" in psychology and psychiatry regarding sexual orientation have been discredited by both mental health professional organizations which have APA as their initials. 

I have read over and over how some of you say there is no bible for what we "Christians" preach. Well you are WRONG. There is plenty of bible and here is just ONE example in the New Testement of the Holy Bible. Romans Chapter 1 22 - 32 Professing themselves to be wise they became fools, and changed the Glory of the uncoruptible God into an image made like unto corruptible man, and to birds, and four- footed beasts and creaping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to ucleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves. Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever Amen. For this Cause God gave them up to vile affections: For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And Likewise also the men LEAVING THE NATURAL USE OF THE WOMAN BURNED IN THEIR LUST ONE TOWARD ANOTHER MEN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, AND RECIEVING IN THEM SELVES THAT RECOMPENSE OF THEIR ERROR WHICH WAS MEET. And even as they did not like to retain God in their Knowledge God gave them 0ver to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not conveinent; Being filled with all UNRIGHTOUSNES, FORNICATION, WICKEDNESS, COVETOUSNESS, MALICOUSNESS, FULL OF ENVY, MURDER,DEBATE, DECEIT, MALIGNITY; WHISPERERS, BACKBITERS, HATERS OF GOD, DESPITEFUL, PROUD, BOASTERS. INVENTORS OF EVIL THINGS,DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS, WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING,COVENANT BREAKERS,**WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION**, IMPLACABLE, UNMERCIFUL. Who knowing the judgment of God, that THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.

Hello! 

I'm new here to the Dr. Phil site. Ehem, but when i saw this topic was going to be on Dr. Phil I was so excited and well, really anxious to see what Dr. Phil has to say about this actually cause i'm an 18 year old lesbian and i'm a Christian myself. It's kinda hard on me though cuz my family does not accept my sexual orientation and my church doesn't either. I haven't told them that i'm like this and i don't really plan on it either cuz i fear the worse.  

I hate hiding but it's better then having my family hating me or even worse seeing my mom being so crushed by this cuz we've already gone through alot with my oldest sister and i don't want her to be upset over me either. 

But i can't see why you can't be a Christian and a lesbian cuz i'm a very happy Christian, i'm filled with the holy Ghost and i have a very close relationship with God. 

I can't see why you can't and i wanna hear what Dr. Phil has to say about it. Can't wait till tomorrow! ^-^ 

I used to do online correspondence with an ordained United Methodist Minister, now retired, who married the only woman toward whom he ever experienced a physiological sexual attraction. He said that he had been in the presence of very attractive women before he met his wife and of course saw lots of women who were visually sexually attractive during his adult life. But, he never experienced a physiological sexual attraction toward another woman besides his wife. 

  

It is quite possible for one to fall in love with a person of one gender AND marry that person, while all of that person's other physiological sexual attractions are directed toward others not the gender of the person whom one married.  

  

My own father, who was exclusively heterosexual, did marry the last woman with whom he fell in love (they both were my biological parents and I was born 3 years after they got married).  

  

But, he told me that he did experience those inner body attractions toward women in his presence. He called that feeling "getting his passion up." But, he refused to even lust after them. So, as Jesus would say, "He did not commit adultery in his heart (because of what he felt or saw)." 

Sister, I put off telling my folks about my sexual orientation because I was also afraid of telling them and how it would affect me. I was 41 years old when I moved from Tulsa, OK to Los Angeles, ending up in N. Hollywood, in the spring of 1984. I have been a Holy Spirit-filled Pentecostal since I was 16 years old (I got that first experience in an Assembly of God in Oct. '58). In fact, it was an AG in Tulsa, where I received two prophecies by Holy Spirit-filled men that I should leave Tulsa. Oh, they did not know that their prophecies were comfirmation of a "fleece" that I had laid before the LORD Jesus as to whether I should move out of state to look for work. They also did not know that the LORD also used them as HIS plan to get me out of Oklahoma so that I could accept myself as HE had already told me, "Joe, I made you that way and I love you just the way you are."  

  

The LORD even prepared a place for me to stay after I got there; although I had not actually planned to stay in anyone's home. I just let a former ORU college friend that I was in LA on the day that I arrived and I was invited to spend the night as his home. I stayed with that pastor for 6 weeks. (He did not know that I knew he was a closeted homosexual before I stayed with him. We were just good friends, anyway.) 

  

After I had moved out there and later moved in with Ed, a Believer in Jesus, too, I did let my younger sister know about my sexual orientation. But, my parents sort of found out accidently in Nov. '87. When I was at work on the graveyard shift, I often wrote letters to family back in Oklahoma, when there was a lull period and I just was sitting by myself at the security gate. I had planned to write 2 letters during the shift and addressed one to my sister and one to my parents. 

  

In the one to my sister, I told her that I had gone to a Halloween Party with a bar friend who used to live in Western Oklahoma (my family was in Eastern Oklahoma). I had met the friend at a Country and Western Club mostly attended by gays and lesbians in my neighborhood. The party was over in S. Pasadena and while we were there, a guy whom the friend knew was hitting on me; but, I was not paying any attention to that. That guy asked me to get him and myself a refreshment refill and while I was over where the drinks were, my friend told him, "Leave Joe alone." The guy asked him why, and the friend said, "Because you are not his type." The guy was into the S&M/B&D Leather games scene. The guy said, "What if he has fantasies?" The friend said, "While I don't know Joe really well, I do know that he is not interested in that stuff at all." (Not exact quotes, but words to that effect.) 

  

By mistake, I put the letter which was supposed to go to my sister into the envelope which I had addressed to our folks. I don't really remember if I ever got around to actually writing to Mom and Dad that night. But, when Mom later told me about what they received and after she read it to Dad, he said, "That's okay; I still love him!" Oh, one thing I had not mentioned here; my father had been an AG evangelist, of the lay type, for a number of years and also a pastor for 2 of my growing up years. So, Dad kept right on telling me that he loved me every time he talked to me. And one thing that he had always told me in person very often before I moved to LA and during my years before that and after I moved back to Tulsa in '92, was "Joe, I have loved you ever since before you was born." (Exact quote which he always meant.) And he kept saying that until he went to be with the LORD in Feb. 94. While we never actually discussed my sexual orientation nor even my in-bed relationship with Ed, who died in '91, Dad did talk and ask about what Ed and I did as a couple of guys living together. Besides, he was never interested in his adult children's sex life anyway. 

  

Now my mom, who went to be with the LORD in April this year, and I did talk about my sexual orientation. As far as she was concerned, she considered a person's relationship with the LORD more important than his or her sexual orientation. She also believed that gays who were in love should have the same right to a marriage license as heterosexuals have. She even let politicians know what she thought about equal rights for everyone, too.  

I'm exploring the clash between my faith and my same sex attractions.  Everyone's got an opinion so who do I listen to?  Can I be gay and Christian?  I've got a blog chronicling this journey for me.  I'd appreciate any feedback.  It's at: 

  

http://twoworldcollision.blogspot.com/ 

  

Thanks! 

Eric 

I am not gay myself but I do have a lot of gayfriends. I love gay people, they are wonderful people with good hearts. 

You are who you are and you should be respected for that, and please dont let the bible wear you down so to say. Just beacuse it might say it is wrong in the bible doesnt mean it is wrong. The bible was written a couple of thousands of years ago and the society were very different then.   

  

Long live the gay people and no one shouild care if someone might be gay or not. They are people too with feelings at all. 

  

  

We’ve had a similar message board taking place on a different part of the Dr. Phil website, so I apologize if I repeat myself a bit. 

  

 

Personally, I cannot wait for the show tomorrow!  I should also mention that I am a 22 year-old gay male. 

  

 

Also, I’ve been raised a Christian my whole life…and I truly believe that God is going to welcome me into Heaven.  Seriously – I don’t have a single evil bone in my body.  I find it so strange that I can meet someone who meets my emotion, spiritual, social, etc. needs and makes me an even better person, but we can’t be together because we share some of the same body parts.  So what if I happen to love someone who just so happens to be of the same sex as I am.  My biggest sin is…LOVE?!?!  I honestly feel that God has blessed me (yes, blessed) with this sexual orientation because he wants to use my life in so many awesome ways to help open the minds and hearts of others.  I’m probably one of the most open-minded people you’ll ever meet.  Even Dr. Phil states that the number one need of all people is acceptance; I’m happy to offer that to people 

  

 

Personally, I really think that it sucks that the society that I so greatly contribute to is denying me certain rights.  I’m a young, healthy, smart, articulate young man.  I’m in my last year of my undergraduate work and will start next fall on my doctorate in physical therapy.  I am going to do great things in my life.  For the people that don’t accept me, that’s your choice (and that’s one thing that is a CHOICE).  It’s unfortunate because I’m a great guy to know.  And fortunately for me, I don’t need your acceptance.  I choose my happiness, not you…or anyone else for that matter.  I’m a good guy.  I like me. 

  

 

Also, look at the marital state America is in.  Over half of the marriages end in divorce.  There are hundreds of thousands of gay individuals involved in a heterosexual marriage because that is what they feel is expected of them.  That’s not fair to either person.  If the man is gay, then he deserves to live openly and have a sense of acceptance, and his wife definitely deserves to be in a relationship where she will be loved and taken care of for the women she is.  No one wants to live like that.  I honestly think that the divorce rate would go down if we allowed people to own their feelings and follow what they feel is right in their heart and mind.  Honestly, what have we got to lose? 

  

 

Speaking of divorce, statistically speaking about half of the people on this message board could have been divorced.  Doesn’t the Bible also speak against getting a divorce?  And how many people on here are overweight/obese (another 67%) and/or smoke and/or have tattoos?  That isn’t a very respectful way of taking care of your “temple.”  And I don’t list this to offend people (I really don’t!)…but it just amazes me how people pick and chose the sins they want to address to people.  It just seems that people are so quick to pick out the “faults” of others because it makes them feel better about their own faults and problems.  I truly hope this isn’t the case for any of you.  As a Christian and a gay male, I really want you to be happy and healthy…and I think all people have the right to be.  Sometimes, I’ll jokingly reply to people that disapprove and cast judgments, “Well, thank you for your thoughts and I hope in my next life, I can be perfect just like you!!!”     

  

 

As far as the people that have “converted” to heterosexuality…I’ve never met anyone who fits this description, although I have heard about it…but I think it’s a bit sketchy.  Sure you can have a lot of spiritual and social support, but there is so much brain chemistry and hormonal responses associated with sexual orientation and attraction that I find it hard to believe that one could change it with willpower alone.  I wouldn’t be surprised if most, if not all, of these people still knew at their very core that they were still gay…no matter how much they may not want to be.  Do you think that someone could "convert" to homosexuality if he/she "tried hard enough?"  And I don't mean "experimenting" and just going through the motions...but knowing with everything fiber of his/her being that this is true in the heart and mind.  

  

 

Believe me, I really do understand where people are coming from, and I admire your commitment to what you interpret to be right.  There have been times when I’ve read parts of the Bible and then said “hmmmm, that doesn’t make any sense regarding how I feel…what feels so natural to me?!?!”  So, I mean, I don’t know everything…but what if, just what if, it turns out that God really doesn’t care either way?  I would hate to have lived my whole life in guilt and shame, when I could have flourished and been proud of the man that I am.  Okay, so I know exactly what you are thinking; “What if, just what if, God doesn’t approve, and you’ve lived your whole life gay and now you are going to be condemned to Hell?”  Well, good question!  And neither of us honestly knows the answer to the question. 

  

 

  

 

There is a lot of controversy regarding whether sexual orientation is a result of biology or environment.  Believe me, I’ve read through most of it.  If this was in fact a learned behavior, I was interested in learning how to unlearn it.  Personally, I feel that it is biologically based, and even Dr. Phil states that it is biologically based (at least that was his stand previously).  Why would anyone choose this?  It’s a hard lifestyle…but only because others make it hard.  And since I am actually gay, I have a little credibility in stating that I did not choose this.  I ask you this, if science could prove that homosexuality was absolutely, without a doubt biologically based, would this change your position?  How could you judge someone based off of something that is beyond his/her control?  Surely you aren’t racist as well…you wouldn’t disapprove of people of different races to be married, right??? 

  

 

I encourage everyone to share experiences and fellowship with some of your fellow gay Americans, so that you may broaden your mind and heart in this area.  You’ll soon learn that, well, it’s just not a really big deal.  If you don’t, you will be the one left in the dust…because I’m doing just fine…with or without you!! 

  

 

Holy smokes!  I’ve written a book…thanks for reading!  Much love and respect. 

Also wanted to add... 

 

I am taking a Behavioral Neuroscience class, and I wanted to include an insert of what this psychology book says on homosexuality.  Keep in mind that authors of scholarly textbooks go through a lot of research before they make any statements…so this isn’t “just one research” leaning towards a biological basis for homosexuality. 

  

 

“…The brains of heterosexual women, heterosexual men, and homosexual men may have been exposed to different patterns of hormones prenatally.  The real difference – if indeed sexual orientation is determined by prenatal exposure to androgens – may lie elsewhere in the brain, but at least we have an indication that differences [of brain anatomy] do exist and that exposure to prenatal hormones has a profound effect on the nature of a person’s sexuality. 

  

 

Another factor that may play a role is sexual orientation is heredity.  Bailey and Pillard (1991) studied pairs of male twins in which at least one member identified himself as homosexual.  If both twins are homosexual, they are said to be concordant for this trait.  If only one is homosexual, the twins are said to be discordant.  Thus, if homosexuality has a genetic basis, the percentage of monozygotic [identical; share exactly the same genes] twins who are concordant for homosexuality [both gay] should be higher that that for dizygotic twins [fraternal; share 50% of same genes].  This is exactly what Bailey and Pillard found:  The concordance rate was 52 percent for identical twins and only 22 percent for fraternal twins. 

                         

To summarize, evidence suggests that two biological factors – prenatal hormonal exposure and heredity – may affect a person’s sexual orientation.  These research findings certainly contradict the suggestion that a person’s sexual orientation is a moral issue.  It appears that homosexuals are no more responsible for their sexual orientation than heterosexuals are.  Ernulf, Innala, and Whitman (1989) found that people who believed that homosexuals were ‘born that way’ expressed more positive attitudes toward them than did people who believed that they ‘chose to be’ or ‘learned to be’ that way.  Thus we can hope that research on the origins of homosexuality will reduce prejudice based on a person’s sexual orientation.  The question ‘Why does someone become homosexual?’ will probably be answered when we find out why someone becomes heterosexual.”  

  

 

Carlson, Neil R.  Foundations of Physiological Psychology, 6th Edition. Boston, MA : Allyn and Bacon, 2005. 279-280. 

  

 

Thought I’d share! 

For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature 

 

It would definately be against MY nature to sleep with a man... bleh!