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Topic : 06/06 "I'm Gay, OK?"

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Created on : Friday, October 14, 2005, 03:56:41 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1

(Original Air Date: 10/19/05) Sexual orientation used to be something kept hidden from family and co-workers, but now more and more people are "coming out" and finding acceptance. Anjela says her mother and sister don't support her sexual orientation, and feel she can't be Christian and gay at the same time. Can they reconcile this touchy issue? Then, two men debate whether a person can go from gay to straight, and parents of a 4-year-old boy fear their son's desire to play with dolls and wear heels means he'll grow up to be gay. Are they overreacting to his wishes to be a princess instead of a prince? Talk about gender and gay issues here.


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October 20, 2005, 7:26 am PDT

10/19 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Quote From: fanof14

You can't just spew off statements at the top of your head and claim them as facts. 

  

A few months ago in the Toronto Star there was a research article about the connections between hormones and being gay. The study found that in gay men, by smelling the scent of another males sweat, released the same sexual hormones that straight men did when smelling a woman's scent 

  

This study was done over a long period; they also measured the hormones of pubescent boys when they smelled a male and female scent and used this to predict later sexual orientation. By testing younger boys, there is less risk to assume that gay men are aroused because of conditioning, rather than genetics. 

  

And I doubt this is the only research completed in this area 

Being gay may part be choice but probably a greater part of it not a choice 

  

PS - Why whould anyone CHOOSE a life of inner-turmoil and potentially family-breaking results? 

Did you "decide" to be attracted to members of the opposite sex? Did you one day sit down and say, "Well.... I guess I'll go for the men" - No, of course not, it was a natural feeling to you 

 I found the study on phermones from May 2005 where only adults were studied.  This study was done by Invanka Savic at the Karolina Institute in Stockholm, but there is no mention of pubescent boys.  This study was not at all convincing.

Can you point me in the direction of the one that used younger boys?   Or give me more information so that I can look it up? 

I would like to see that. 
 
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October 20, 2005, 7:31 am PDT

openmind1

Quote From: openmind1

Bible fundamentalist Christians who worship the bible as GOD'S WORD instead of JESUS as GOD'S WORD, insist we MUST follow the suggestions of Paul in his letters as if it were direct LAW for everyone. They do this despite the fact that Paul is merely an apostle, a sinner no greater than you or I. Even he admits he sins continuously in Romans 7: 17-25. His letters are no more than his feelings, experiences and advice. If we are to follow his personal letters to early churches as LAWS then we deny Christ. In addition, Paul said, in Romans 14:5 “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” In other words, USE YOUR BRAIN and THINK FOR YOURSELF.   

 

Now here are some examples of the hypocrisy of these bible fundamentalists:  

 

  • Apostle Paul included LYING, GLUTTONY, DRUNKENESS GOSSIPING, FITS OF RAGE and REVELRY among the sins that result in eternal damnation. So how come I don’t see the self-righteous, convenient bible thumpers paying the same kind of special attention to THESE deadly sins they do to homosexuality? Where are the religious rallies outside of gossip magazines? Why aren't Christian conservatives protesting to make over-eating obese people unfit to be parents, teachers etc? Where is the MASS OUTRAGE? After all, only around 6-10% of the population is gay but lying, gluttony, drunkeness, gossiping, rage etc. These are UNIVERSALLY appilcable to ALL people. Seems to me the reason you don't OBSSESS over these is probably because they hit a LITTLE closer to home right?
  • Being gay is not an ethical crime nor anti-social ill. The vast majority of gay people are productive, law abiding citizens, many of them serving their country well. If anything it is just a RELIGIOUS sin (depending on which sect you belong to and how you interpret the bible). On the OTHER hand, something like GLUTTONY and SLOTH which the bible condems in Prov 23:21, Ecces 10:18, Rom 13:13, Phil 3:19 and 1 Pet 4:3 results in over millions of heart related illnesses and death, diabetes, cancer, stroke, financial loss and burdens for everyone, loss of productivity, child hood obesity and early death etc. Where are the Christian protesters. Where is the mass outrage and condemnation of fat people who overeat and will be going to hell according to Paul and other apsotles in the bible?

To any fair-minded Christian who truly follows Christ, these fundamentalist's “biblical” condemnation and  standards are suspiciously SELECTIVE. They claim the bible is absolute holy truth, and judge gay people by it and want the government to cater to their religious dogma when it comes to that issue. But not everything else? How come you don’t want to be held accountable by the SAME bible code in law and all aspects of your life? That inconsistency makes you appear to be hypocrites. If you are going to use the bible in this dogmatic fashion, don't do it just for ONE thing, do it for ALL things.  

 

The problem is, you can't. NO ONE CAN. And that is your pitfall. This is exactly why Jesus said, "Judge not for the same manner in which you judge will be the same manner in which God will judge you." So for all of you who INSIST on strict adherance to your interpretation of the bible, I hope for you sakes you are PERFECT in EVERYWAY in doing the same.  

Perhaps the reason "I'm" not rallying, as you say, is b/c these other issues are not topic.  Put them before me and watch me run with them.  I'm on a quest to turn around every "unGodly" magazine I see for the sake of quite possibly not EVERY child in America will see the utter filth that is on the front of some of these magazines.  As far as the gluttony, that would just simply fall in there with idolatry.  You are simply no longer putting God before all.  Instead,  you're putting food first.  Sins, in general, though, are not a lifestyle as what is claimed with being homosexual.  Instead, sins are a shortcoming.  They are to be repented of.  However, homosexual people do not repent of it.  Therefore, it is not a sin that can be repented of. 

  

I'm not sure why everyone is talking about how "good" homosexual people are.  Of course they are.  Why wouldn't they be?  It's not like this affects their intelligence, moral standpoints as far as the community is concerned, or they are simply sluggards.  I don't get what all of you are "standing up for them" about.  I've known several homosexual people, one being my cousin, and I don't get what the hype is all about.  Just b/c I speak the truth of what God would call us to live like doesn't have a thing to do with the "rest" of them.  Likewise, there are SEVERAL gluttons who are wonderful people, just have fallen off what God would have for them.  No more, no less.  On a further note and a MUCH harsher one in my eyes, I'm not nor will I ever JUDGE anyone.  I am simply speaking the truth.  I have spoken the truth for years and have not judged one soul over it.  I suppose if one wants to judge, I would be considered by MANY a horrible Mom for the ways I've treated my one son.  Not topic here, but I GUARANTEE you, MANY would stand in a very long line to point a finger at me to have seen how I treated him.  However, fast forwarding 6 years, he is a MUCH better child for it.  In fact, I'm quite sure some homosexual individuals are better parents than a lot of non homosexual individuals.  Can't get much worse than some parents these days.  Doesn't make it "right", just that it is what it is.  So, be careful in who YOU point a finger at saying that we are judging.  I'm not judging, just simply stating my beliefs.  Everyone is entitled in this wonderful country.  I'm not bashing their standpoint, as I've said before, just telling mine.  I know God will be judging me and I'm not one that cares for His wrath.  I know I'm not perfect, but repentence is a beautiful thing.  I seek the kingdom first and all these things shall be given unto me.  I believe the difference is I'm truly sorry for my sins against the Father, a homosexual chooses the lifestyle. . . that's all.  I will love all God's people for eternity.  He commands it.    

 
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October 20, 2005, 7:33 am PDT

Dr. Phil Should have told Parents the truth!

 The parents that were concerned about their 4 year old son being gay, should have been told the truth instead of giving them FALSE hope.  That mother needs to deal with her homophobic mind set so that her son will feel loved for he is and not for who she wishes he could be.  My youngest brother in law did the same thing her son did at the same age.  He walked around in high heels, dressed up like a girl, etc.  As he got older, he would decorate the house with lace curtains and do dishes, bake, etc., things traditionally considered feminine.  He is now 30 years old and living a gay life style with  a monogamous partner.  I'm happy for him, but he suffered greatly in his family and still does today because of their denial and fear.  Another young man in my daughter's first grade class, told her over and over, that he wished that he had been born a girl and that she was Sooo.. lucky.  They are now in high school and he is gay.  I believe people are born this way, and how can you change the way your system is wired?  Isn't there a study somewhere that was starting to prove that some humans with gay tendencies have a genetic make up of "xxy"?  I could  have sworn that I read or heard that on a news show.  It would make a lot more sense than giving that mom false hope.  She will need to get therapy to deal with her homophobia.  God gave her that child for a reason.  We all need to be a little kinder to everyone we meet.  It sure would make this a nicer planet, eh?
 
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October 20, 2005, 7:38 am PDT

10/19 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Quote From: meggiekins

 
      I'll stick around and answer these questions (every one that you proposed in your post), although I am guessing you probably won't like many of my answers. :)

     If you believe that God thinks homosexuality is wrong (and clearly you do), and you believe as a Christian that its your job to completely follow the word of your Bible, then you are correct, it is not for you to say that Homosexuality is right when you believe God says it is wrong. You have adopted your path and lifestyle, and that is complete obedience to the Bible. If that is the life that makes you happy, then I wish you every luck in it and am glad you have found your place in life.
     No, I certainly don't believe that I am wiser than God. But I do believe that God gave humans Free Will, and the minds with which to think for ourselves. And with my Free Will, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is not a reliable source that can be literally applied to modern life, nor is it free from the limitations of the humans that wrote and translated it. And so I must use my god-given Free Will to decide what is right and what is wrong, and I put faith in God that he has steered me in the right direction.
      No, I do not believe I know better than God. See my above answer for a more detailed explanation.
       I don't believe that God thinks homosexuality is wrong. I believe he predetermines one's sexual orientation, whatever that may be, and whether they choose to accept who they really are, or deny who they really are, is up to them. I believe God appreciates love in all of its true forms, and understands that homosexuality causes no one any harm.
       I do not believe that adult siblings should be allowed to marry. Inbreeding can cause serious genetic repercussions over the long term (and sometimes in the short term). Beyond the genetic aspect, incestuous love breaks down the necessary boundaries that exist within families, and eventually lead to the breakdown of the family. Love exists in many forms, and incestuous relationships blur those forms into an unrecognizable jumble, which poses a serious threat to society as a whole.
       Personally, I see no problem with three people all getting married. I think that the number of people that would willingly enter into these kind of relationships in our society is relatively slim, and provided that all three people understand what they are doing and enter into the relationship willingly, I don't really see a problem. It certainly would not be my choice, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't. I think that unrestricted polygamy as a whole is a dangerous concept, again because of the genetic repercussions of it in the long term, but I see no reason why three consenting adults should not be able to enter into a marriage with each other.

For the record, I don't believe a single person that has posted hates homosexuals. I think the problem arises from the basic fact that you see their homosexuality as a sinful act. They see it as a part of who they are, and when you say you hate the sin, they see it as you hating a part of them. I understand that you believe its out of love, but they may not see it the same way, because they may not have the same beliefs as you. Whether you recognize it or not, you are forcing your beliefs on another person and asking them to follow the same standards that you adhere to, because you see them as the truth. I think everyone here understands that you believe homosexuality is a sin, and thats your right to believe it, but it is also their right not to believe that, and to not feel the need to defend their lifestyle to you or anyone else.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, that certainly is not my intention.
 Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from.

I also completely agree that God gave us free will.

If you don't beleive in the Bible, how do you know what laws or values to follow?  Where do you get answers that make you believe God makes some people gay?

What if the siblings were adopted?  What about an adult mother and son, where the son was adopted?  Should they be allowed to legally marry?

Your reasoning that a marriage between siblings can cause breakdowns within the family ?  A gay marriage can also cause some serious breakdowns?   Where do you get your family values down, when you talk about blurring boundaries and such?  Ancient tradition?

And I see that you also think that three should be able to marry each other.  How very open-minded of you.

Thank you for understanding that we do not hate homosexuals.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Sincerely. 

And I understand why you feel the way you do about us not telling them our opinion on the matter.  However, they (most of them) are claiming that they follow Christianity.  This is more of a theological debate than anything.  So if they follow Christianity, I'm asking how they can reconcile certain verses that seem to apply.  I'm asking and asking and asking and asking and there hasn't been any answers.  After Justin answered, I asked again, but no answers.  To his defence, I don't think he's here anymore.   So if we're all Christians and we have a disagreement, we should be able to use the Bible as our final authority on any subject. 

I've also asked so many times for the verses that say that homosexuality and even homosexual marraige is perfectly okay, according to the Bible.   Yet, when asked for the references, over and over again, I am ignored. 


 
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October 20, 2005, 7:41 am PDT

sexual sins

Condemnation on sexual morality distinguishes the 'Bible',evangelical Christian. They imply that Jesus came down from heaven primarily to make sure everybody was having proper and righteous sex. Yet Jesus never mentions sex.  He certainly never mentioned homosexuality, once. For a sin that is so serious , it seems a serious omission on His part. He does mention hypocrisy, greed, greed and greed, however, but the condemning fire and brimstone Christians don't seem to be particularily moved by those admonitions. The few and I emphasize FEW references to homosexuality in the Bible are mostly from the Old Testament- Leviticus. If we are to embrace Leviticus we also need to embrace orthodox Judaism, eat only kosher foods etc... That pretty much leaves Romans I. Romans I is followed necessarily by Romans II and I quote: 

Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. 2 For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.  

  

This is obviously by way of a conclusion to the first chapter. So condemning Christians- consider yourselves warned. 

  

  

 
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October 20, 2005, 7:42 am PDT

You missed the point...

Quote From: max_01

Sorry to point out that once you pick and choose which laws of the bible to follow and those not to follow, you too are a sinner in the eyes of God and must ultimately answer to Him.  

  

As a gay male myself, my sins may be apparent to you, and you may choose to judge me accordinly, however, Laviticus also states that a man maynot touch a woman wile she is haveing her peroid. I hope you follow the Laws of God closely. 

  

Judge not least ye be judged. 

After 2000 hours in Cosmetology I have managed to make some gay friends. I am defending them, not those who would judge them...
 
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October 20, 2005, 7:45 am PDT

10/19 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Quote From: boogiebear

 I hear people say this so much. They believe in the the instructions given in the Bible as a guide to day to day living. I wonder if they have set down and read the book.
In Deuteronomy 22:28-29, you are instructed that if a man rapes a virgin woman, that if he is commanded to give the father 50 pieces of silver and take her as his wife.(imagine giving your daughter over to her rapist for some money, so he can force her to be his wife?)
In Lev. 11:7-11, you are commanded that eating or touching of swine flesh is an abomination( Who wants to go tell the NFL they are all in danger of going to hell, or being stoned for throwing around a pigskin football?)
In Lev. 15-19-33 tells how unclean a woman is on her period, and what things you have to do to be around a woman on her period.  I would hate to see two turtles and two pigeons get killed every month I have one.
In Lev. 20:10 Adultery means both parties gets killed. That would really cut down on the population of the US and Canada.
The Bible teaches love and tolerance. It teaches forgiveness and hope. Even if you believe in the Bible as the exact word of God(the KJV, not sure how God wrote in English, or the Oxford English Scholars who translated it were perfect) please remember people who don't believe exactly like you believe still believe in God. Lets all respect each other.

 We've gone over the Leviticus stuff many times before already and pretty much figured these are old laws. Christ came to fulfill the law.  The only thing mentioned in the Old Testament that also happens to be addressed a few times in the new is homosexuality.
 
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October 20, 2005, 7:48 am PDT

10/19 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Quote From: ev1973

I read all these responses with a lot of interest  and curiousity, and one thing keeps popping up in my mind: what about interpretation from the word of Christ by the apostles? Christ didn't pen down the words, his Apostles did in his name... but what if they decided to adapt certain passages, change his words. I honestly cannot believe that Christ says to love each other but to exclude a portion of man/womankind...Honestly, the Bible has been translated and rewritten for 2000 years, isn't it time to keep that in mind? Homosexuality is just another way of loving one another. It is not for everyone, but shouldn't be discounted as something sick or perverted. I'm not gay and I've seen things far worse happen in so-called "straight" relationships. I only listen to what God/ the Universe lets me know in my heart and use that as measurement of a good life, not what any book tells me (Bible, Koran, Torah or whatever). Nobody knows the truth, so let's just accept each other and try to live together.  

  

Esther 

 This has also been addressed many times in the thread.  There is no reason not to trust that the scriptures we have today are very precise and have been copied down through the generations meticulously - proof - the dead sea scrolls, other geneologies by non Biblical writers, the writings of other historians, more than 500 peices of archaeological evidence, and only 2 weeks ago, a 2000 year old copy of the book of Leviticus.  God choose the right people, the Jews, to preserve his word.  
 
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October 20, 2005, 7:49 am PDT

10/19 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Quote From: hivyo1

Hi 

  

I'm a 39 yr old man who has tried everything. I did Christian counselling, deliverence ministry, broken generational curses, did Living Waters twice, did the Sy Rogers course Living and Loving, did numerous short courses through the Baptist Union and did an accountability program with my church. 

  

In July this year, I came out to my church and had to leave when I realized that God loves me uncondionally and accepts me the way I am. I have since found out that my sexual orientation can't be changed as I was created by God a sexual being. It isn't a bad habit and shouldn't be compared to drinking, smoking or drugs as they are habits and my sexual orientation isn't a habit. 

  

I then came across Gay Christian Network www.gaychristian.net which has helped me know that I'm not alone and you can be gay and a Christian, they aren't at opposite ends but can live together. 

  

If you are struggling with this issue, you will be welcome at GCN, there are resources that will help you in your search for answers and insight. 

  

God bless 

  

hivyo 

 How can you say that God cannot change a person?   This shows a serious lack of faith. 
 
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October 20, 2005, 7:51 am PDT

10/19 "I'm Gay, OK?"

Quote From: johnnyb119

Noah's Children also had to procreate with each other. And that was after the condemnation of incest. Where does it say that we can drive cars in the bible? Since it doesn't is it sinful to use them? I hardly think so.   

 Noah had three sons and their daughters who also entered the ark, so it would stand to reason that their children procreated.  That wouldn't be incest.

It doesn't say anything about cars.  It does mention homosexual activity. 
 
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