Topic : 06/06 "I'm Gay, OK?"

statistically, there is a higher rate of domestic violence in heterosexual households than in same-sex households.  

wouldn't that make same-sex households a healthier environment for children to grow up in? statistically speaking, I mean. 

ah, I re-read and saw that term was in the original quote from someone else. sorry!. 

my client does know how her parents are supposed to be treated etc. she masturbates cuz it feels good, cuz it's natural to keep doing something that feels good. she doesn't know other people think it's wrong. she doesn't 'honour' her parents because she has no reason to. she doesn't understand abstract moral concepts. and it's applicable to the argument because you said 'what sins do they have to repent for?'. there's some right there. also, you didn't reply to those with develomental disabilities who are gay. to they have to burn for eternity too? and what about kids who grow up in families who are very accepting and loving and not worried about the gender of their children's lovers, as long as they are happy? what if those children grow up not knowing that some christians think it's wrong? do they get out of eternal damnation because they didn't know better? same as those with developmental disabilities? 

and I'm not saying menatlly challenged people chose to be born that way - no more than gay people chose to be born that way. 

A.  Gays and lesbians have children the same way infertile couples have children or have children have previous marriages. 

B.  People do not "turn gay" because of abuse--many more people would be gay if that was the case. 

Romans 1:21-31 

The key to these passages is the word "natural". But first the story for those who are not familier with it.  In these versus we see that there is a group of people who turn away from God. From this point on their lives begin to spiral downward and they commit all sorts of sins. One of which is turning from what is “natural” for them to that which is “unnatural”.

The issue here revolves around the word “natural” which is derived from two Greek words phusikos (Strong's #5446) and phusis (Strong's #5449). These words literally mean that which is a persons "natural disposition" and something that comes "instinctively" to them. In other words, it is who you are naturally; without reprogramming, counseling, or any other form of behavioral modification that attempts to change your behavior to that which society has deemed acceptable.

You ask any gay person what their natural sexual orientation is and they won’t even hesitate to tell you that being gay is. The problem is of course when you discuss the issue with a heterosexual person. Unfortunately many times people who belong to the majority tend to think of themselves as the ‘norm’ and therefore what is ‘natural’. Everyone else falls into another category altogether and in some cases is considered even slightly abnormal. 

Our sexual orientation is no different. The vast majority of our population is predominately heterosexual in nature  (approx. 90-95%) with the remaining minority being homosexual (approx. 5-10%). Researchers have found that these percentages remain pretty much the same across all racial and cultural lines. Varying only by the amount of tolerance or intolerance a particular society has for such differences.  

Another key point in Paul’s story is that the people turned away from God FIRST and THEN began living a sinful ‘lifestyle’. If homosexuality is a sin. By this description we should see that every homosexual person first turned away from God and THEN became a homosexual. Yet I’ve seen everything but. I’ve met numerous Christians who were gay. Some were saved before they came to grips with their sexuality. Some were saved after they “came out”. There is no common denominator. I can only conclude that ones sexual orientation has nothing to do with ones relationship with God. 

Another important point to keep in mind is what Jesus taught us concerning those who have ‘fallen away’ from God. That being that those who are separated from God will envariably exhibit the full gambit of bad spiritual “fruit” in keeping with who they serve. Jesus said that “a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:18) Therefore “by their fruits you will know them.” (Matthew 7:20)  

When I met my first Christian gay woman I knew something was a miss with the Church’s doctrine concerning homosexuals. Here standing before me was a person who professed Jesus Christ as their lord and savior and exhibited in their life the full plethoria of “good fruit” that Paul described in Galatians 5:22-23. How could this be? According to Jesus good fruit could not be produced on such a “bad tree”. If homosexuality was a terrible sin that separated us from God it was physically and spiritually impossible for this woman to be standing before me and yet she was. 

Only one conclusion remained. That being that ones sexual orientation was not, in and of itself, a sin. It was instead just another variation in God’s grand scheme of diversity and as such we should not reject it merely because it was different. 

Note: There is a much more thorough discussion of Romans and the other 'anti-gay' passages on the web site www.gaychurch.org which is a sister site of Justin's. Check out the section "Gay and Christian?" there you will find 3 excellent series of articles on the matter. One from E T Sundby the author of "Calling the Rainbow Nation Home" another from Justin the author of the web site truthsetfree.com and another from Bruce Lowe a retired (straight) Baptist minister and a theological school teacher. 

ok....I don't think this is gonna go anywhere. all of your claims are based on completely unsupported, subjective beliefs. I can't argue with that. that's like me coming up with a random opinion "it's natural to be purple, all people should be purple because i am", then tryna have a discussion based on that. it's not logical, you can'y base a discussion on it. 

your underlying beliefs seem to be:  the definition of 'natural' is your personal experience. I can't really argue with you if you don't believe in diversity of experience. how do you know boys aren't naturally attracted to other little boys? because you said so? I'm sorry, but that just isn't enough evidence for me.  

we don't have a definition of 'natural' to work with here. 

you say you were born hetero, and that makes it natural. I'm gonna assume by the way you're talking that you're white, so please excuse me if my assumtion is wrong. but, if you being straight makes that natural, then is it only natural to be white because you are? if it's unnatural to be gay, because you weren't born gay, is it unnatural to be asian, because you weren't born asian? 

as far as america being homophobic, my point was, wouldn't it be easier for all the people born straight, to just stay straight, rather than choosing to be gay and then 'pretending' they were born  

gay? why go to the trouble? 

you said this: 

"If people were born homo, then half of our population would be gay. Right? " 

where did that come from? again, you're making up random thoughts and using them as thought they are logic, or supported fact. people are born asian, doesn't mean half the population is asian. people are born deaf, doesn't mean half the population is deaf. why would you say half the population should be homo if people are born homo? 

I am soooo lost.   

"I also have a problem with the Bible being taken out of context. "  

-- So do I. 

" We just keep hearing the same thing about 'hate' 'close-minded' etc." 

-- How else do you describe folks who believe their intrepretation of Scripture is the only intrepreation out there? Worse yet, if you or someone else believes Scripture is saying something else then you are labeled as "believing lies and manipulations" or taking Scriptures "out of context" 

" Yes, I've studied the scriptures and they've been posted here a few times by people but no responses on them." 

-- Perhaps there are no responses because people have things to do and it takes awhile for their comments to be posted. Or worse yet - they believe you are close minded and only label others with differing opinions as believing in "lies and manipulations". Learning new things requires honest dialog and an open mind. 

Jenna if you want to discuss the Scriptures I have no problem with that. Where do you want to begin? The story of Sodom or in the New Testament? Your choice.