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Topic : 10/25 Deadly Injustice

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Created on : Thursday, October 20, 2005, 02:49:48 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1

You never think that your family will be hurt by someone you know, let alone someone you once cared for. But that's exactly what happened to one family. The story begins in a small town in Oklahoma, a safe place just like any town in the heartland of America. Donna and Jerry dated for five years, but when Donna tried to break off the relationship, she could never have predicted the lengths to which Jerry would go to hurt her. This real life drama unfolds with horror and violence and unimaginable twists and turns, but ends with a message of hope. See what good Dr. Phil believes can come from an unthinkable tragedy. Join the discussion.

 

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October 30, 2005, 2:55 pm PST

10/25 Deadly Injustice

Quote From: iodine

Those are very good questions?  I'm not sure though that you will really get any straight answers.  I've noticed that there is nobody on here (family wise) from the maternal side.  Of course with the way the posts are leaning, i can understand why.  Only they could answer those questions.  I do know who Kevin is and he is a good police officer and family man.  If the signs were as evident as everybody is saying, surely he would have seen them.  Maybe the signs were more under the surface than it appears.  If you do get the answers i would like to hear them as well. 
i also think these are interesting questions also. you are right. there are no family members from the maternal side BUT some friends of Caitlin and Amanda are here along with here real father and stepmom Van and Cindy Wooten are here tho!!!
 
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October 30, 2005, 3:16 pm PST

That is completely unfair!

Quote From: kstwin64

I'm stymied by an issue that I just cannot seem to find an answer to. It may already have been asked and I just didn't see it so please, just bear with me. 

  

That is, Donna's brother, Kevin, the maternal-side uncle (favorite, I'm guessing) to a 15 & 16 y.o., is unaware that Jerry, a non-relative by blood or marriage, has begun isolating Donna and the girls from the maternal-side family and others in the community, possibly starting 4 or 5 years earlier. 

  

Now, Kevin, as uncles oft-times are, is asked to attend his nieces' birthday parties, or asks if they want to do some "silly" shopping, or go out after cheerlead or color guard for a coke or something along that line, or something.  

  

But he hasn't been invited to any birthday parties and the girls say "No" each time to the other questions. 

  

How many times has he asked the girls to do something or go somewhere with him and he's told, "I can't" or "I can't right now" or the answer is just an outright "No." Once? Twice? Three times? More than that in about a 4 year period? 

  

So does Kevin eventually, say 2 or 3 years ago, just casually get with a law enforcement colleague or other close friend and say, "You know what, I'm wondering why my nieces don't want to see me. Think maybe they're at an age where they don't want others of their age to think they're being chaperoned? Any thoughts?" Or some question or dialog along those lines. 

  

Does Kevin, 4 years ago, go over to Donna's house to ask her why the girls don't want to see him?  

  

Does he go over to Donna's a number of times over 3 or 4 years and walk away satisfied with the answers he's gotten?  

  

Does he go over to his parent's house and say, "Do you have any idea why the girls won't see me?" And their reply 4 years ago, 3 years ago, 2 years ago, is? 

  

Does anyone, especially any of the girls' peers' parents (it would seem Kevin might have some sort of nodding acquaintance of some of those parents, especially if a family had an athlete in that family that would have been one of those being cheered on), start to wonder why the girls seem to be more home-bound and just mention it to Kevin, or is that like the girls from even earlier on than Jerry's presence? 

  

I've been able to get this far. What am I missing? 

Everything is obvious in hindsight.  After the murder, it is easy to point out (or assume) signs.  That is totally unfair to Kevin and Donna.   

  

Maybe I'm being harsh.  This situation is a terrifying look at how things can go very wrong.  I guess this analysis makes you feel confident that YOU would know the signs and catch the bad guy in time.  I can understand the desire to solve the problem, but you are placing blame on victims who I'm certain did the very best they knew how to do.  

 
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October 30, 2005, 5:26 pm PST

10/25 Deadly Injustice

Quote From: iodine

Those are very good questions?  I'm not sure though that you will really get any straight answers.  I've noticed that there is nobody on here (family wise) from the maternal side.  Of course with the way the posts are leaning, i can understand why.  Only they could answer those questions.  I do know who Kevin is and he is a good police officer and family man.  If the signs were as evident as everybody is saying, surely he would have seen them.  Maybe the signs were more under the surface than it appears.  If you do get the answers i would like to hear them as well. 

Iodine: 

  

Your reply is not only intriguing, it's cryptic.  

  

Is there some dark secret in Ada, OK that even the death of a blossoming 16 year old's death won't allow to be uncovered? 

  

How sad.  

  

If such is the case, it would seem the show's title might more appropriately be "Deadly Secret." 

 
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October 31, 2005, 2:46 am PST

Who sets the rules?

The story of beautiful Caitlin's death is shocking. Her killer had kidnapped her mother at gunpoint only 30 hours before. Whoever set the rules saying that violent men can be let out onto the streets because they have enough money to meet the bail bond ? Why can violent men buy their way out of jail? Had this man been poor he would be in jail. I say to the rule-makers--- Change the rules and let justice prevail. 

 
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October 31, 2005, 5:47 am PST

More questions

Quote From: thevoice

Everything is obvious in hindsight.  After the murder, it is easy to point out (or assume) signs.  That is totally unfair to Kevin and Donna.   

  

Maybe I'm being harsh.  This situation is a terrifying look at how things can go very wrong.  I guess this analysis makes you feel confident that YOU would know the signs and catch the bad guy in time.  I can understand the desire to solve the problem, but you are placing blame on victims who I'm certain did the very best they knew how to do.  

Interesting how I'm seen as "blaming" anyone. I believe my post is non-judgmental, non-threatening, non-hostile, focused, fact-seeking and brief.  Nowhere did I say, "If so and so had done such and such this would  or would not have happened." How is that unfair to anyone?  

  

I abhor the ad hominem argument, but I can't help but engage it here briefly. Since I don't know if you're male or female I'll ask my question to you this way: If you were the aunt or uncle of two active teenagers whom you clearly and dearly loved, would you wonder why they stopped seeing or talking with you for several years? Would you also not go a step further and actively seek an answer as to why they're "avoiding" you for all that time?  

  

I hope others don't see my questions as "harsh" when all I am asking is that others think about what I've asked went on for 4 or 5 years and then add their own questions such as:  Were Christmas's shared?, was 8th grade graduation shared? Did anyone go to grandpa's house for his birthdays? Did anyone go to grandma's house for her birthdays? Did anyone go to the gramps for their anniversaries? Feel free to add your own question (I was hoping I wouldn't have to add them myself. I actually was hoping to see a tag-along post that asked one or more of those questions.) 

  

If you answer "No" to any of those questions, that does not assign blame to anyone, it just says that's the way that family functioned. But, I submit, it is out of the ordinary. And that, in hindsight, is what becomes remarkable.  

  

(Analytically, I would think this now would suggest that if the family operated this way there was self-imposed family-wide estrangement, whereas while in most classical instances most families are kept apart by the alleged abuser's "controlling" behaviors [such as geographic separation or as threats: to self, to significant other, to significant other's child or children, or towards significant other's family, etc.] there is no one, who has the skill and expertise in helping families, getting made aware there's a serious problem brewing and that serious intervention may become necessary.)  

  

And really, nothing is obvious in hindsight. That's just the problem. If there's no observable or definable problem other than a knee-jerk reaction for an "easiest" solution then Caitlin's death may have been in vain. And I can't believe that's any consolation to anyone. 

  

But the poster is mostly right of me when it's remarked "...this analysis makes you feel confident that YOU would know the signs ..." because I believe the more that is learned about human interaction the greater the opportunity to see where early-on detection can be offered because even highly-functioning families may need help badly (perhaps even desperately) and if the most subtle signs, previously overlooked, are recognized perhaps more can be helped, will be helped and most hopefully, saved.  

  

 
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October 31, 2005, 6:34 am PST

10/25 Deadly Injustice

Quote From: kstwin64

Interesting how I'm seen as "blaming" anyone. I believe my post is non-judgmental, non-threatening, non-hostile, focused, fact-seeking and brief.  Nowhere did I say, "If so and so had done such and such this would  or would not have happened." How is that unfair to anyone?  

  

I abhor the ad hominem argument, but I can't help but engage it here briefly. Since I don't know if you're male or female I'll ask my question to you this way: If you were the aunt or uncle of two active teenagers whom you clearly and dearly loved, would you wonder why they stopped seeing or talking with you for several years? Would you also not go a step further and actively seek an answer as to why they're "avoiding" you for all that time?  

  

I hope others don't see my questions as "harsh" when all I am asking is that others think about what I've asked went on for 4 or 5 years and then add their own questions such as:  Were Christmas's shared?, was 8th grade graduation shared? Did anyone go to grandpa's house for his birthdays? Did anyone go to grandma's house for her birthdays? Did anyone go to the gramps for their anniversaries? Feel free to add your own question (I was hoping I wouldn't have to add them myself. I actually was hoping to see a tag-along post that asked one or more of those questions.) 

  

If you answer "No" to any of those questions, that does not assign blame to anyone, it just says that's the way that family functioned. But, I submit, it is out of the ordinary. And that, in hindsight, is what becomes remarkable.  

  

(Analytically, I would think this now would suggest that if the family operated this way there was self-imposed family-wide estrangement, whereas while in most classical instances most families are kept apart by the alleged abuser's "controlling" behaviors [such as geographic separation or as threats: to self, to significant other, to significant other's child or children, or towards significant other's family, etc. there is no one, who has the skill and expertise in helping families, getting made aware there's a serious problem brewing and that serious intervention may become necessary.)  

  

And really, nothing is obvious in hindsight. That's just the problem. If there's no observable or definable problem other than a knee-jerk reaction for an "easiest" solution then Caitlin's death may have been in vain. And I can't believe that's any consolation to anyone. 

  

But the poster is mostly right of me when it's remarked "...this analysis makes you feel confident that YOU would know the signs ..." because I believe the more that is learned about human interaction the greater the opportunity to see where early-on detection can be offered because even highly-functioning families may need help badly (perhaps even desperately) and if the most subtle signs, previously overlooked, are recognized perhaps more can be helped, will be helped and most hopefully, saved.  

  

I certainly could answer your question about my own family, but what is the point in that? I have friends whose families don't spend much time together at all and I have friends whose family diapproves of their choices in life and they avoid them entirely.  None of us know anything about this family so making assumptions is just that....making assumptions.
 
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October 31, 2005, 7:15 am PST

More Questions!!!

How was Jerry able to make bail. $200,000 is a lot of money. What did he do for a living? 

 
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October 31, 2005, 8:58 am PST

something to ponder on......

Has anyone wondered why the father was not on the Dr. Phil show?  Was he invited or was he even aware of this show taking place....doubt he would have expected it since it was so close on the heels of Caitlin's tragic death.... 

  

Also, when Donna fled to Tulsa to save herself, did she stay with family, friends or possibly a new man in her life? 

  

Just wondering! 

  

  

 
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October 31, 2005, 9:33 am PST

10/25 Deadly Injustice

Quote From: asdf456

How was Jerry able to make bail. $200,000 is a lot of money. What did he do for a living? 

200,000 is alot but a bail bondsman would have only cost him 10%.  So he really only had to dish out $20,000
 
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October 31, 2005, 9:42 am PST

10/25 Deadly Injustice

Quote From: kstwin64

Iodine: 

  

Your reply is not only intriguing, it's cryptic.  

  

Is there some dark secret in Ada, OK that even the death of a blossoming 16 year old's death won't allow to be uncovered? 

  

How sad.  

  

If such is the case, it would seem the show's title might more appropriately be "Deadly Secret." 

I'm not real sure what you mean by cryptic.  I don't think there were any secrets surrounding the death of the child, i just think what escalated over a 5 year period can't possibly be explained in one hour.  There are too many facets to this story that probably go unannounced.
 
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