Topic : 12/27 Extreme Parenting

Julie42, 

Much luck to you and to the others that might be thinking of leaving an abusive environment.  That is what an environment of "having to walk on eggshells, of having someone around who focuses on her negative points, constantly corrects you and criticizes you," is.  Your self esteem slowly erodes, because he always seems to have an argument for his behavior, like when he gets mad at YOU for having any sort of emotional response to something he might say or do.  It is like this type of man can't handle any emotions coming from anyone but himself, and those emotions should be on the forefront for all to see, to predict, and to cater to.  And somehow, over time, we start to believe them. 

I had the courage to finally leave my ex, with nothing but the clothes on my back and my young son.  After contacting the police department, I found that the time that 911 had been called, but no charges pressed and then we got back together, didn't count.  Then my ex tried to destroy my reputation and created all sorts of scenarios where I was an "unfit" mother and tried to take my child from me.  He was so protective of our "family" life that very few had ever seen his controlling behavior, and to those that had and had mentioned it, I had DEFENDED him.  Such was my conditioning.  So many horrible, odd and completely untrue things were said and, you guessed it, a custody battle started. 

Ladies, before you leave these men, make sure you save those nasty emails, get a tape recorder and tape his abusive behavior.  If he threatens you physically, get out, but make sure you follow through with police reports, etc.  Because he will take your leaving as PROOF that he was right about you.  You ARE mentally unbalanced (becauses he can't deal with your emotions and you have had little or no emotional support for so long now, in fact, he has probably eroded any network you may have had by alienating friends and family, or even moving you to secluded area.)  You ARE an alcoholic if you enjoy a beverage or two.  You ARE cheating on him if you have friends that happen to be male.  When you leave, he will become more dangerous than ever.  He will want to PROVE his is right, probably more to himself than to others.  Then, the lawyers at both ends will paint a "worst case scenario" picture of divorce and he will go for your juggular, then you will feel as if you must do the same.  If at all possible, and the pathology of your partner permits, please DO get into a co-parenting program.  Some courts make it mandatory for divorce cases with high conflict.  This program saved my life and made it possible for us to finally co-parent without harming our son. 

They call these men Narcissists.  Do a web search and see if you are with one. 

During it all, remember that home IS a place where you should be safe to be yourself.  To cry if you feel sad, to grieve, to heal.  It should be a place where dancing is not frowned upon, and friendships aren't threats.  It is okay to forego doing the dishes and to roll on the floor and tickle your kids.  It is your right, and it is your children's right to be loved no matter what.  No matter if they screw up 18 times in one hour.  The behavior is to be dealt with, not the person inside.  We are all beautiful beyond belief, inside, and it is our task to remember that when we feel like we have failed, that we are somehow irretreivable flawed, when we start to believe what an abusive partner tells us. 

I say this to myself as I say this to you, because I am still struggling to get back what I somehow gave away to that man I thought was the love of my life.   

All in all, Dr. Phil IS right.  It is better to be healthy alone (even if you are scared, you are broke, you feel like you can't do it all) then to be sick with someone else (even if he paid all the bills and ran the place like a military joint where the laundry was always done and everything was always in its place.) 

Just make it a SAFE place.  Safe to talk, to plan, to dream, to hope, to dance, to even be scared, but leave that scary stuff outside.  It is SOFT inside.  But watch out, Mama, cuz you and I both have to watch out for being TOO soft, especially if there is shared custody involved.  They come home with tales of too many rules, of a harsh tone of voice, or a scared feeling that made them go to their rooms until the other parent was "nice" again.  We run the risk of trying to make up for what we know they must be going through.  We must remember to give them structure, to be their parent and not their friend.  They won't always know what is best for them and before we reach out to make it all "okay" for them, make sure that there isn't a lesson that they need to learn in order to become their best selves. 

Good luck, Julie.  Keep up the good work.  Be proud you had the courage to get out.  To those that are still in, beware, be aware and be careful.  Do what is best for your children and yourself. 

   For the record....the coaches that I do respect from this gym and the ones that coach him are all married.  And since you think you know me so well from one 20 minute section of the show, let me make one thing clear...I am not living out a childhood dream through my kids. I was the biggest tomboy ever, and still refuse to wear a dress! And my daughter did not tell me to go to hell, so quit putting those kind of  words like that into her mouth! Now, the funny thing is after the show, she asked to get back into cheer after a one year break and is doing just fine. She actually missed it, she went back on her own making her own decision. We even made her really think about it for 2 weeks  before agreeing to let her go back.  

It is always interesting to watch the shows and hear what some people say and think and most of the things I can't say much because I am not in a relationship or have children, but the child who was driving the car at over 100 miles an hour??? HELLO!!!!  I totally support the fathers actions, but I would have taken it further.  My mother and father have always taught me that some things are a priviledge and not a right.  So if I had done something like that with their car, it would not be my priviledge until they thought it was time for it.  And it would not be easy to get it back, driving only with them in the vehicle-- embarassing for any teen trying to be cool-- and major punishments and extra chores. And any sass about it during the lose of use extended the sentence. 

Please tell me that child is not driving unsupervised, even with that chip in the vehicle. 

Dear Julie, 

For the first time, I was inspired to sit down and write to Dr. Phil. I was going to tell him that he had missed the mark - well, not so much missed the mark, as not seen "the big picture". I made a few notes while watching your segment, then, before writing to him, discovered the message boards, and your message, and discovered that I was at least partially right. Allow me to share the rest of my 'intuition' - it's really none of my business, anyway - but, between the 3 of you, or at least you and your daughter, it should be dealt with, especially if I'm right. 

I think that the bare bones of it is an obvious power trip. (Have you seen "This Boys' Life?") Incidentally, I wouldn't have come up with the comparison, except that he compared himself with "The Great Santini", which, btw, is not a compliment either.  

However, I think that during the dating period with your husband, your daughter was probably protective of you, as children of all single parents are. (Yes, I'm a single parent, of a child who is now pretty much grown up). She probably acted out somewhat, and showed him that he was not particularly welcome in your very comfortable, cozy situation. 

Being the narcissistic person that he is, he likely knew long before you suspected, that he intended to marry you, never doubting your compliance. There would have been a very strong element of "I'll show you" in his thoughts toward your daughter, back then, in the 'courting' phase. He would have hidden this very well, I think - in fact, he was probably very charming, quite a different person, doing everything that he could to win both of you over before actually living with you. Her reservations might have been stronger than yours, except for times that it was convenient for them not to be - i.e. let's say he had just bought her a generous gift, especially one that her friends would admire - one that might make her think he was more 'in tune' with her age group than she had thought. This would only be manipulative on his part - it's perfectly natural for her to be won over, for a short period of time, and then to return to her natural, instinctual misgivings. 

I was sure, while watching the show, that he treated you the same way. I was also sure that he felt humiliated to be told that he was wrong in any way - especially for his contract to be graded. This is a man who thinks himself much smarter than he actually is: he thinks that by throwing in the word 'deems' that it makes him part of the academia. And infraction? How dare he? Infraction by whose standards? Who is he to call anything an infraction? My first, knee-jerk, childish reaction would be 'you're not the boss of me'.  

I predict that he will take only the things he wants to out of that advice - those being when Dr. Phil said to you, Julie "Are you too indulgent?" thereby laying all of the blame on you. "You need to change that" - he will take that as directed at you, instead of at both of you. 

When Dr. Phil said "You can be firm" "You can set rules", you can be assured that he will take it upon himself to set rules and be MORE THAN FIRM on his own, not as a team. And that those rules will apply to you, as well. 

He will NOT believe that kids don't have impulse control, or that their brains aren't fully developed yet - not developed enough to see the consequences of their actions - even although this is a proven scientific fact. 

The statements that he made that really stood out were "I wanted to correct that", and how it was "his will against her will" - he would never allow someone else's will to win over his, no matter how much yelling, it took. This is a person who would progress into violence. 

Dr. Phil said to him "Your motives might be good" I strongly disagree with that. His motives are completely driven by a lust for power, and the need to have both of you under his heel. 

Please, Julie, stay away from him. He will not change. You could tell by the look on his face, and his constant 'twitching' when he didn't like what was being said, that most of this information was being 'spun' on the way in one ear, before it got out the other. 

Do not believe ANY of the negative things that he has told you that you are. Please, just take a look at him - you could do a lot better. What kind of self discipline does he have? Just look at the 'before and after' pictures provided here on the website -  I'm not personally against being overweight - I'm just saying that for someone who is supposedly all about discipline, then he should be providing a perfect example of self discipline, in every possible way.  

Children live up & down to expectations - and 'up to' works much better. Believe me, I had a mother who constantly told me that I'd be pregnant before I was 17 - and, I was. One thing that Dr. Phil says that is extremely true is the phrase about 'it takes 1000 "atta girls" to get rid of 1 derogatory phrase'. I believe that it's never necessary to raise a hand to children, because it's humiliating to them - love works much better than so called discipline. In fact, if they're shown enough love, and direction, you'll find that they'll do what they're told, without 'discipline'.  

I must stress again that both you & your daughter do not believe the vile, vitriolic things that this man has said to you. Get counselling if necessary - you need to train your brain to think & believe the positive, because it's easier to believe the negative.  

I'm saying this from experience - my sons' father was the same kind of power tripper & control freak. Thankfully, I didn't stay with him. My family dynamic is appalling - it's easy for an outsider to see - but when behaviours have slowly been allowed to continue over the years, they seem natural to those who are perpetuating them. Yes, I have tried to arrest these behaviours on several occasions, but my mother claims that I 'take her the wrong way' OR she promises to change....she's like Lucy in the 'Peanuts' cartoon, though - holding the football for Charlie Brown, promising not to pull it away, only she always does - consequently, I see my family very rarely. I never want to be a victim, I don't want to stop trusting people - because there are good people out there - I'm grateful for those people. I've always thought that the most important moral was to be kind. So, please be kind to yourself, and your daughter, trust your intstincts & intuition - they're never wrong - stay away from that horrible man. If you haven't seen "This Boys' Life" do see it - it's more accurate than "The Great Santini". Oh - btw, you're lucky that there are no other siblings, or he would be playing favourites - adoring one, holding her up as an example, and using the other as a bad example - & giving her no credibility whatsoever, when she says & does worthwhile things. Basically, then, the 2 kids could do exactly the same thing - it's great if the 'good' one does it and terrible if the 'bad' one does it. "Why can't you be like your sister/brother?" 

Good luck to you, Julie. I'm so glad that you're still separated from him.  I couldn't add an 'emote' to this because I feel disgust toward that man, and that wasn't provided in the drop down menu. I hope that you and your daughter are recovering - sometimes these people can put you in such a state of trauma that your relationship can actually improve, you can be brought closer together. I do hope that that is the case. Suki 13. 

Julie, Nathan has serious control issues and this is so damaging to your sweet child.  I saw this for almost 15 years with my daughter and son in law.  My daughter & youngest granddaughter now live with me after a bitter divorce and it has taken her some time to get her feeling of self worth back.  I absolutely hate what this man did to her.  Unfortunately, she stayed for economic reasons much longer than she should have.  The girls rarely see their father (he is an alcoholic) but his demands on the family over the years has done some damage that has taken time.  Luckily both girls have wonderful young men in their lives who make them feel special. 

Please don't continue to live with a control freak; it is detrimental to your child's and your health to say the very least! 

Concerned Grammy 

  I have 2 daughters that have been actively involved in cheerleading for over 15 years.  10 years at school and All Star.  I understand where you are coming from.  My girls were active in other activities such as track, tennis, dance, and softball but soon realized they couldn't do it all and give a full comittment to all and had to make decisions.  I have always taught them " if you join the team you must give it your all as a team player".   Of course they chose cheering.  You just can't just pull out and have the team suffer.  I always let  my girls decide what was most important to them and never pushed them.  Now if they changed their mind, to bad, they had to finish their team obligation.  I enjoy watching boys cheer and don't think it will make them gay,  although a lot  of them are.  My eldest daughter cheered in college on a coed squad and maybe a few were gay.  They were some of her best friends.  As for wanting him to cheer for scholarship reasons let me say this:  my daughter won EVERY individual competetion she entered,  she was American Cheerleader  Magazine's cheerleader of the month then AMC  magazine cheerleader of the year, she was named National Cheerleader of the Year and on the cover of several magazines and modeled for many well known catelogs.  She did not get a college schollarship!  They really don't exsit.  Dr. Phil is right on that.  Most will wave out of state tutition.  ( you may wanna check with Hawaii Pacific though).  Needless to say she probably ended up with about 4-5 thousand dollars.  No much these days and with all she accomplished.   Don't push him, he will succeed at what he wants not with what you want.  I will say from what I saw he does have a great future.  Glad to hear your daughter found herself and what she really wanted.  Let your son do the same.   

I posted a message already, replying to Julie, saying that Nathan is much more "This Boys' Life" starring Robert DeNiro & Leonardo DiCaprio, than The Great Santini. Still, he obviously doesn't understand that the main character in "The Great Santini" is by no means a hero. Instead, we're meant to see how pathetic he is. 

I'm not sure if my reply was posted - I do want to point out that Nathan is a man who thinks that he's much smarter than he actually is. Driven by a need for power, he tries to control those closest to him - Julie & her daughter. I thought that Dr. Phil missed the big picture on this one - Julie herself posted another message, indicating that Nathan once said "I want to break her spirit" about her daughter, which basically confirms everything I thought....and from there on in, her poor daughter went downhill, in mood, grades, everything, withdrawing.  

Nathan seemed utterly humiliated, especially by Dr. Phil grading his 'contract'. I thought that by using the word 'deems' and, to a lesser extent, 'infraction' Nathan considers himself part of the academia. I know that he will listen to very little of what was said, except when Julie was asked 'were you too indulgent?' - I'm glad that she pointed out in her reply that she wasn't - personally, I didn't like that they allowed the show to be slanted that way, because I suspected that she & her daughter had a very cozy & comfortable situation going before Nathans' arrival. If she was getting A's in school, she must have felt unfettered by emotional concerns. I also didn't think, as some repliers indicated, that Julie was acting more as a friend than as a mother. There is simply a different dynamic to single parenthood - you're a team unto yourselves, even when everything isn't going well, there is a fierce loyalty there - almost an 'us against them' mentality. If you've been a young single parent, the child might have observed her/his grandparents expressing doubts that the single parent would 'manage' or 'make it'. Those kind of grandparents often interfere, expecting that the child will 'see their side of it' when of course the childs' loyalties will be on their parents' side. Yes, I've experienced this firsthand.  

Julie, it takes immense courage to break away from someone like Nathan - someone who is this abusive during a relationship can become much more so when you attempt to break it off. Especially a marriage, when there are legalities to deal with. Good luck getting him to help out financially - I do hope that he will contribute toward the counselling that both of you will no doubt need, after all of his abuse. I suspect that there is more than you have divulged - it's just so difficult to reveal even as much as you have - that's courageous as well. I could see the wheels turning in his head, blaming the both of you for everything, during the show. Not taking in the information that was useful. It must have been very painful for you, while the abuse was going on, often being too afraid to intervene, paying the price when you did. I hope that your daughter understands. 

I was lucky enough to learn about abuse from my sons' father when I was a teenager - there's something very recognizable in those type of men, no matter how charming they appear at first. I mean, after you've been through it once, badly, you tend to be able to pick them out, and avoid them, for the next potential time. I became very judgmental of anyone who tried to tell my son what to do - I just didn't think that it was their place, especially early on- so, if they did so, that was the end of them. Once bitten, twice shy. It's just not your new lovers' place to discipline your child. And it's a big warning sign if that's their intent. 

Anyway, I'm so glad that you found the courage to leave. That speaks volumes in itself  - and it shows what you're capable of for the future as well. If you can leave someone like that, who held such power over you, you can do anything, Julie. Anything. The best of luck to both of you recovering from that horrible bully. Do remember, when there are times that he tries to make it difficult for you - ALL bullies are essentially cowards. 

suki13