Topic : 06/05 Conception Deception

Quote From: blouic

JEWelerboy (I'm assuming this implies self-declaration of Jewry), 

  

I apologize for any misconceptions, and ask that you permit me to clarify: 

  

My mention of the Holocaust is in no way meant to 'bully'; rather, it is intended as an appeal.  Nor do I, in any way, label you as a 'Holocaust-denier.'  On the contrary, my assumption is that you, like most educated readers, affirm the reality of those events--and that you are also aware of the Neo-Nazi (revisionist) propoganda that persists in denial. 

   

One of my closest friends is Jewish by heritage and faith.  She--knowing me--and knowing the circumstances from which I speak--would know my words are grounded in deep respect  [and support and sympathy for Holocaust victims, survivors, and their loved ones alike.  She would understand my reference to Holocaust as an emphatic assertion--and affirmation--of gravity and TRUTH!  

  

She would know my disgust for the willful ignorance  (adopted by so many!) during the Holocaust, which helped those evils to stay hidden for so long--harming so many! 

  

And, she would see clearly the parallel that is being drawn:  

  

That--in the time of the Holocaust--most people, hearing reports of death camps, simply did not believe such horrible things existed.  First of all, no one wants to believe another human being  capable of such atrocious things (much less someone we would generally regard as normal, like ourselves).    [DENIAL.     

  

From here, it is an easy skip to concluding that such things really are implausible--really could not be carried out, anyway.   [DISMISSAL.     

  

This dismissal can 'gel' into a stance which, unwittingly, allows undercover evils to perpetuate (as more and more fall victim--despite the growing voice of insistent pleas for help).   We don't believe; therefore, we don't act.   [DECISIVE INACTION.     

  

After a time, and for their persistence--knocking at our ears, when we have already determined that there is no problem!--we become annoyed with the victims...for being victims....  Left unexamined, this position of annoyance sees us further hardenening our stance and reinforcing efforts to block our 'ears.'  [DETERMINED (WILLFUL) INACTION.   

  

Evenutally, this hardened, defensive position gives way to turning offensive...not  toward  the underlying evil...but toward the victims themselves.   Now, we--still unwittingly!--RE-victimize the victims by telling them that their pain, their plight is of no account to us, and how dare they bring their false claims and faulty perceptions to us!...There is nothing for them to complain about--instead of pointing fingers, if they suffer so much, they should take a look at themselves and go get themselves straightened out....There is nothing happening to them...they need and deserve nothing from us.    [DISCOUNTING.           

  

  

 

 

This keeps them stuck.  And the evil perpetuates. 

  

  

The commonality is this: 

  

This position of non-acceptance (non-exploration!) of truth is what undermined the social fabric of humanity and integrity, and thwarted (for years!) potential help to countless victims, during the Holocaust.  [Incidentally, besides Jews and others, Jehovah's Witnesses "were among the first of the first," as one historian put it, to be placed into the concentration camps, because of their persistent noncompliance with Nazi patriotism--a fact of special significance to me, which also says that I would never use lightly such an atrocity for comparison to anything.  --Just so you know. 

  

This stance (of non-acceptance of truth)--so widely adopted back then--is the same one that allows any abuses to proliferate today.   ...In this case, I refer specifically to domestic abuse and--more specifically--to the widespread and hidden phenomenon of SLEEP-SEX VIOLATIONS.   [This is a controversial but--nonetheless, very real! --form of RAPE!    

  

  

Also: Like the SS guards, who knew full well the mechanisms by which such abominations were carried out (even while maintaining secrecy and veneer of respectability to outsider eyes), domestic abusers--in this case, sleep-sex perps--know full well the mechanics used to carry out their own perverted acts of violation.  [BTW, an abuser thinks in terms of manipulation and control--and opportunity--and believes others think in these terms as well.   This mindset--plus knowledge of his own tactics--fuels paranoid expectation of others' guilt in kind.... This is why my ex-husband was so thoroughly convinced  that D. must have violated me, too! 

  

  

  

...Very serious subjects...both reflecting very serious cultural flaws, indeed. 

  

  

  

Another note: These rapists wish not only to avoid waking up their sleeping victims...they hope that a sleeping society will not wake up to their actions as well!  LET'S PLEASE WAKE AS A SLEEPING GIANT TO STOP THESE SEX PERPS IN THEIR TRACKS!!!  Let's shine the spotlight not on the stunned victims but on the stealthy sex perps, who presently count on and thrive on a society that remains sound asleep and in the dark! 

  

  

 If you have not already so, please do a message board search for blouic for more on this subject. 

  

Quote From: missjane2

A Question.... Did your ex ever have sex with you at a normal time or try to?  My ex usted to prefer late, late, late night sex... (3am) and I mean 10 years worth of it, but I can't say I slept thru it one time even though I didn't prefer it at that time.  Since we have separated it has been really really nice to be able to sleep thru the night.  I have a whole lot more energy during the day too.  But I wouldn't call it rape because we were married.  I think if you are married Sex is part of the committment.  It confuses me how many people get married to someone they don't want to have sex with.  Why are you marrying them?  This is pretty much one of the few things that you don't do with everyone else that you are suppose to do with them.

Quote From: msomeone2

I just wanted to add that my victimization did not begin with my bad marriage, it began before, it's called grooming, you learn you are worth less that you truely are, and as an adult the victimization continues in other relationships because you do not believe you deserve better. I am going to make a guess Mary, that you have been a victim long befor Steve, and in your early adulthood did not know you would need to heal before selecting ANY man in your life. Am 20 years out of the gate and I race like I want to win. The healing process can be painful, but the benifits are worth every moment. It was harder in the first 5 years, but less and less as the past is laid to rest, I have a life I am happy with, and you can too. The thing that I noted 20 years ago was this "What is it about me, Why did I allow this man into my life?" the answer "because I do not think I deserve better." The day came I realized better men were probably interested in me, but I could not see them through the "slime colored glasses" I was wearing. That was why I did not search for any man unless and until I got well. I would never see the good ones while I saw myself as worth nothing. While you are in healing, do things that will build your esteem, take classes to build basic skills, mastery of even a community college class can work wonders. If Steve does not support you in a jouney of healing, he is no friend of yours.

Quote From: mayzeegrl

Yes, they had sex. Yes, she got pregnant. Yes, she had another child from a previous relationship. Yes, she married him, and Yes, he got her pregnant by having sex with her while she was asleep. I can't speak for Mary, but I know I would feel trapped if I had to raise children on my own.  I know i would feel violated if my husband ever had sex with me without my consent.  And, I would get professional help.  Fortunate for me, my husband would never do this and I do not have children.  The main issue here------------- he had sex without her consent=rape.  You sure you watched the same show?????????????

Quote From: blouic

I feel your pain--and your confusion.  

  

Please, please, please!  ...Don't ever assume that marriage is a license to unlimited access!!!  -- not to anyone's body!   [Husband or wife!   --Believe it or not...it's less frequent, but sometimes the female is the unreasonable one, demanding about sex.        

  

This ("unlimited access")  is an unfortunate misconception held by many--and it is also one of the beliefs that holds victims STUCK--unable to recognize an abusive (controlling, manipulative, opportunistic) mindset and protect themselves from it.   AND--unfortunately!--it is one of the beliefs I once held.  

  

Marriage is a license to sole access--exclusive!--but  not  un-limited!!!  --Marriage gives legal sharing of finances, too, but does not furnish un-limited cash access...to either partner.  [I'm sure you can see where that would go...! 

  

Re: sex during my marriage: First of all, the abusive behavior occurs in cycles--which means things sometimes are positive and enjoyable in the marriage, too.  [The problem is, anxiety and insecurity always looms, because ultimately, control--always slippery, regularly elusive, and patently unrealistic to expect to maintain!--is what the abuser is perpetually scrambling for.  Eventually, some event (however unpredictable, however big, however small) threatens his feeling of control and fuels the start of another cycle. 

  

But in the meantime...during times when the abuser feels comfortable with the status quo, he can actually be very enjoyable company!  It is the positive traits of this person that the victim first became (and remains) in love with...so positive times and positive interaction do exist.  This was true of my marriage as well.   

  

Yes, we did have some periods of 'normal' sex [mutually enjoyable and consensual.  He did tell me once, however, long into the marriage, that he had only actually 'made love' to me twice throughout all of that.  So...even the majority of times that I felt we were genuinely making love--as a couple--his mindset was still that he was...getting his.  He just is not capable of genuine, equal sharing and intimacy. 

  

We actually had sex.on a regular and frequent basis. Unfortunately, because of the dynamic I described and the faulty belief I held (marriage=unlimited access)--which, believe me, he was merciless in 'reminding' me of!--more often than not, sex/ sex activity was not consensual.  BTW, when I say frequent, I mean that when we first were together, he insisted on three times a day (whether I wanted to or not).  On occasion, I did tell him no--and try to assert my point.  He became violent--wrestling me down--putting holes in walls--screaming at me, "There is NOTHING redeeming about you--NOTHING!!!"  (actually, that quote occurred toward the end of the marriage, but for the same reason)           

  

That's the thing about an abuser: When you stand up to assert your rights--to hold your position--this for him is intolerable, and violence (verbal or physical) escalates.  His entire aim is to get you to back off your point--leave him in charge.  Besides being demanding in this way--and countless others!--he would resort to the 'sleep-sex violation'  (that's my term for it).  --The shame and humiliation was unbearable--recollection of it still can be--and as I've said, my parents, who helped me divorce, still know none of this.  

  

--Almost forgot to mention: He also insisted on doing it even when I had a fever!   Many times throughout, because of bad health and exhaustion, I literally just did not have the energy to argue.  He knew I did not want it, but that was okay--he did not 'escalate,'  because he could have his way easily then.  He actually was in very good mood during those times!  ...Although, he did ask a couple of times if I could 'make a few moaning sounds'--fake like I was enjoying the sex I didn't want, because he was 'having trouble finishing....' 

  

Several years into the marriage (about 7?) and shortly after birth of my third son, I got an order for protection.  My concern about the sleep-sex and potential pregnancy--again!--was part of the issue.  [Birth control was another issue I did not believe I had right to put limits on--because of how it would limit him, his preferences.    

  

I did finally get my tubes BURNED!!!--against his wishes and after many (unsuccessful) attempts to persuade him of the reasonableness of these measures.  [I was fortunate: I found out I would have coverage for this; many do not.  I have serious health issues which were exacerbated during pregnancy as well--even this fact was not persuasive to him!   We reunited after a few months of separation and with some--supposed--agreement for counseling.   

  

KEEP IN MIND: For those who get stuck in abusive relationship dynamics, the victim enters the relationship playing by one set of rules and the abuser enters playing by another set entirely! 

  

Victim's mindset: The victim tries assiduously to make sure things are fair and pleasing for everyone [but believes she has no right to expect the other person to do the same for her.   

  

Abuser's mindset: The abuser tries assiduously to make sure things go according to his expectations [and believes he is entitled to have his way, regardless of outcome to victim--and feels entitled to treat others like crap, if it suits his purpose for the moment.    

  

In a nutshell: The victim enters relationship with an underdeveloped sense of entitlement--while the abuser enters relationship with an over-developed sense of entitlement.  Can you just see the dynamic..tipping into cycle.... 

  

In a given situation, the abuser will employ whatever tactics are likely to ensure success--alternating tactics, if need be, until he finds 'the one' that works.   --This is another reason abusers  are at times well-behaved, at other times abominable!, and also find many shades of gray in between.  They cover all ground--to extremes.  [Remember: Whatever tactic works....  In the meantime, the victim is racking her brain, trying to make sense of the disequillibrium...figuring out whatever action it will take on her part that can help restore a stable harmony....  Nice little trap! 

  

After that big, long spiel (sorry!), I'll tell you this:  I know the relief you mentioned--finally being able to sleep, with him now gone!   My ex- held varying jobs over the years--sometimes working days, sometimes working nights, sometimes rotating shifts.  Basically, I was fair game any time he was off the clock.  And yes, he would keep me up well into the middle of the night, arguing and pressing for sex despite my determined (and irritated)--exhausted!--answer no.  [And, as stated before, I would wake up after the fact to find out that he 'done me' in my sleep, anyway.   

  

This was a daily or near-daily occurrence for about the first half of my 14-year marriage.  After the first protection order--yes, you heard that right--the actual physical sexual abuse stopped, though the verbal forms of sexual- and other abuse continued.  I was under the misconception then that , because the worst of the physical abuse had stopped, he was no longer abusing me (at least not to the extent that I had a right to ask anyone else to help me do anything about it!).   

  

About four years later, he started looking up porn on the Internet and the physical sexual abuse resumed (enter protection order #2).  Again, more superficial and temporary attempts at counseling, and we reunited.  Five months later, I moved out.  I did not file for protection this time, since I knew he would not have ACCESS to my body at all now.   

  

I was finally in a position where I could give myself permission (and have help!) to divorce. 

  

He still abuses, manipulates, and controls interaction with me...but from a distance.    

  

Breathing easier now....      

  

Sorry for the unduly long response.  It's just what spilled out.  I hope this helps you--and anyone else who reads it.  Feel free to respond. 

Quote From: blouic

I feel your pain--and your confusion.  

  

Please, please, please!  ...Don't ever assume that marriage is a license to unlimited access!!!  -- not to anyone's body!   [Husband or wife!   --Believe it or not...it's less frequent, but sometimes the female is the unreasonable one, demanding about sex.        

  

This ("unlimited access")  is an unfortunate misconception held by many--and it is also one of the beliefs that holds victims STUCK--unable to recognize an abusive (controlling, manipulative, opportunistic) mindset and protect themselves from it.   AND--unfortunately!--it is one of the beliefs I once held.  

  

Marriage is a license to sole access--exclusive!--but  not  un-limited!!!  --Marriage gives legal sharing of finances, too, but does not furnish un-limited cash access...to either partner.  [I'm sure you can see where that would go...! 

  

Re: sex during my marriage: First of all, the abusive behavior occurs in cycles--which means things sometimes are positive and enjoyable in the marriage, too.  [The problem is, anxiety and insecurity always looms, because ultimately, control--always slippery, regularly elusive, and patently unrealistic to expect to maintain!--is what the abuser is perpetually scrambling for.  Eventually, some event (however unpredictable, however big, however small) threatens his feeling of control and fuels the start of another cycle. 

  

But in the meantime...during times when the abuser feels comfortable with the status quo, he can actually be very enjoyable company!  It is the positive traits of this person that the victim first became (and remains) in love with...so positive times and positive interaction do exist.  This was true of my marriage as well.   

  

Yes, we did have some periods of 'normal' sex [mutually enjoyable and consensual.  He did tell me once, however, long into the marriage, that he had only actually 'made love' to me twice throughout all of that.  So...even the majority of times that I felt we were genuinely making love--as a couple--his mindset was still that he was...getting his.  He just is not capable of genuine, equal sharing and intimacy. 

  

We actually had sex.on a regular and frequent basis. Unfortunately, because of the dynamic I described and the faulty belief I held (marriage=unlimited access)--which, believe me, he was merciless in 'reminding' me of!--more often than not, sex/ sex activity was not consensual.  BTW, when I say frequent, I mean that when we first were together, he insisted on three times a day (whether I wanted to or not).  On occasion, I did tell him no--and try to assert my point.  He became violent--wrestling me down--putting holes in walls--screaming at me, "There is NOTHING redeeming about you--NOTHING!!!"  (actually, that quote occurred toward the end of the marriage, but for the same reason)           

  

That's the thing about an abuser: When you stand up to assert your rights--to hold your position--this for him is intolerable, and violence (verbal or physical) escalates.  His entire aim is to get you to back off your point--leave him in charge.  Besides being demanding in this way--and countless others!--he would resort to the 'sleep-sex violation'  (that's my term for it).  --The shame and humiliation was unbearable--recollection of it still can be--and as I've said, my parents, who helped me divorce, still know none of this.  

  

--Almost forgot to mention: He also insisted on doing it even when I had a fever!   Many times throughout, because of bad health and exhaustion, I literally just did not have the energy to argue.  He knew I did not want it, but that was okay--he did not 'escalate,'  because he could have his way easily then.  He actually was in very good mood during those times!  ...Although, he did ask a couple of times if I could 'make a few moaning sounds'--fake like I was enjoying the sex I didn't want, because he was 'having trouble finishing....' 

  

Several years into the marriage (about 7?) and shortly after birth of my third son, I got an order for protection.  My concern about the sleep-sex and potential pregnancy--again!--was part of the issue.  [Birth control was another issue I did not believe I had right to put limits on--because of how it would limit him, his preferences.    

  

I did finally get my tubes BURNED!!!--against his wishes and after many (unsuccessful) attempts to persuade him of the reasonableness of these measures.  [I was fortunate: I found out I would have coverage for this; many do not.  I have serious health issues which were exacerbated during pregnancy as well--even this fact was not persuasive to him!   We reunited after a few months of separation and with some--supposed--agreement for counseling.   

  

KEEP IN MIND: For those who get stuck in abusive relationship dynamics, the victim enters the relationship playing by one set of rules and the abuser enters playing by another set entirely! 

  

Victim's mindset: The victim tries assiduously to make sure things are fair and pleasing for everyone [but believes she has no right to expect the other person to do the same for her.   

  

Abuser's mindset: The abuser tries assiduously to make sure things go according to his expectations [and believes he is entitled to have his way, regardless of outcome to victim--and feels entitled to treat others like crap, if it suits his purpose for the moment.    

  

In a nutshell: The victim enters relationship with an underdeveloped sense of entitlement--while the abuser enters relationship with an over-developed sense of entitlement.  Can you just see the dynamic..tipping into cycle.... 

  

In a given situation, the abuser will employ whatever tactics are likely to ensure success--alternating tactics, if need be, until he finds 'the one' that works.   --This is another reason abusers  are at times well-behaved, at other times abominable!, and also find many shades of gray in between.  They cover all ground--to extremes.  [Remember: Whatever tactic works....  In the meantime, the victim is racking her brain, trying to make sense of the disequillibrium...figuring out whatever action it will take on her part that can help restore a stable harmony....  Nice little trap! 

  

After that big, long spiel (sorry!), I'll tell you this:  I know the relief you mentioned--finally being able to sleep, with him now gone!   My ex- held varying jobs over the years--sometimes working days, sometimes working nights, sometimes rotating shifts.  Basically, I was fair game any time he was off the clock.  And yes, he would keep me up well into the middle of the night, arguing and pressing for sex despite my determined (and irritated)--exhausted!--answer no.  [And, as stated before, I would wake up after the fact to find out that he 'done me' in my sleep, anyway.   

  

This was a daily or near-daily occurrence for about the first half of my 14-year marriage.  After the first protection order--yes, you heard that right--the actual physical sexual abuse stopped, though the verbal forms of sexual- and other abuse continued.  I was under the misconception then that , because the worst of the physical abuse had stopped, he was no longer abusing me (at least not to the extent that I had a right to ask anyone else to help me do anything about it!).   

  

About four years later, he started looking up porn on the Internet and the physical sexual abuse resumed (enter protection order #2).  Again, more superficial and temporary attempts at counseling, and we reunited.  Five months later, I moved out.  I did not file for protection this time, since I knew he would not have ACCESS to my body at all now.   

  

I was finally in a position where I could give myself permission (and have help!) to divorce. 

  

He still abuses, manipulates, and controls interaction with me...but from a distance.    

  

Breathing easier now....      

  

Sorry for the unduly long response.  It's just what spilled out.  I hope this helps you--and anyone else who reads it.  Feel free to respond. 

Quote From: blouic

Sue--it is NOT your fault--it is something that you were inadvertently 'raised into' from your earliest years of development (when you were to young to even remember).  Consider this example: They say an elephant never forgets.  What they are referring to is its amazing learning power...or, its 'trainability' as a circus owner would view it.  --Ever wonder how they get that massive creature to stay put--to stick close to the circus even as it wanders physically unshackled?  For the first few weeks of its life, they put a shackle around the baby elephant's leg with a chain only so many feet long (15, e.g.).  This baby's impetus is toward growth and exploration, but tug as he might--no matter how hard, no matter how many times, no matter which direction--he only gets as far as 15 feet away from the post to which he is chained.  After a crucial period of learning time, this fact of his world is deeply internalized; the chain can then be removed...and the elephant will never wander more than the 15 feet from the circus tent no matter how long it's been since the shackles were removed! 

  

The good news is:  Human beings have the power to go back, recognize the patterns they have been trained into, root out the teaching sources--and actively undertake to UNLEARN the patterns that they have been trained into, which are presently hindering their progress.  It is a very conscious un-learning and re-learning effort.  You might as well consider this as being enrolled in 'night school' for the rest of your life--it's a lot of hard work on top of your already established roles in everyday living, but the potential for rewards and growth and positive change just keep on coming! 

  

Sue--stop blaming yourself.  Start looking at the teaching sources (early msgs. from your upbringing/ early growing environment) which reinforced to you the messages that currently keep you stuck.  We all have them.  For abuse victims--the ones who get into this end of the abusive relationship dynamic--the main message reinforced tends to be, "You have no right to act on your own behalf."  [They recognize that others have this right, but they are not allowed to apply that principle to themselves.   

  

This malignant message basically says, If someone is treating you badly, you deserve it...you did something to bring it on...you will only be a bother to anyone you bring your trouble to...nobody wants to hear it, so stay silent and don't bother us...speaking up and acting on your own behalf will do you no good.  (And, unfortunately, their life 'learning history'--both in and out of the original home--is fraught with examples to support this belief.) 

  

Sue--and MARY--THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT  THERE WHO WOULD BE THRILLED (flattered, moved, motivated, determined, desiring) TO HELP YOU MOVE BEYOND THAT RESTRICTIVE CIRCLE YOU FIND YOURSELF ENTRAINED IN.    [That's a far cry from feeling bothered!!! 

  

Check out the books,  "The Verbally Abusive Relationship, Edition2"  

and "Verbal Abuse: Survivors Speak Out"  both by Patricia Evans 

and "I Never Called It Rape"  (don't know the author) 

  

Healing IS possible--EDUCATING...RE-PARENTING--yourself  is the key!!!   

Quote From: prettybird

I guess we can agree on one thing.  We both are blessed to have wonderful husbands.  Didn't mean to upset you.  Nice talking to you.

Quote From: groovy

I'm Jewish & I not only was not offended by your Holocaust denier analogy, I agree with it.  However, I think you're wasting your time trying to reason with J.Boy, whom I suspect is here to bash women.  Call him on it though & he's "just joking".