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Topic : 06/22 Nasty Breakups

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Created on : Friday, December 02, 2005, 03:43:10 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1

(Original Air Date: 12/05/05) Breaking up is hard to do -- and it's even worse when it destroys the entire family. When Pat announced he was seeking an annulment after 31 years of marriage, his three daughters felt betrayed. Jennifer and Kellie are doing their best to accept what's happened and repair the relationship with their father and his new wife, but their sister, Mynde, says her father is "dead" to her. Can this fractured family find a way to come back together? Plus, Mary Anne lost count of how many lies her husband, Lyle, told her, and after nine years of marriage, she kicked him out. Now Lyle says he's a changed man. Can he be believed and should she take him back? Share your thoughts.

 

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December 5, 2005, 5:12 pm PST

What An Annulment Does

Quote From: claudcarr

An annulment is a process whereby the VOW made before God is set aside, due to an impediment from the get go. It is a lengthy process to go through and requires witnesses who provide evidence to the lacks in the initial contract. One cannot be a Christian and hold deep disdain for other Christians (like Catholic Christians). Chldren are no longer referred to as illegitimate, just out of wedlock, if one needs a label at all anyway. MYNDE: spent a year b4 all this not talking to her father??? Anyone else find this odd? Sounds like a typical CODA family to me. ;- Have sibs who are still doing this!

  

To be more precise - having gotten a Catholic annulment myself  and as a canon law experts daughter-  The annulment looks to see if the conditions necessary for the sacrament to take place existed.  

  

There are 3 beings present in a Catholic sacramental marraige.  The groom, the bride and God.   The bride and groom may have the best of intentions in the world.  They might mean their vows with all their hearts.   However, God knows these two people much better than they know themselves.   Because there is no time with God, He knows already if the conditions necessary to join these two people into one exist.   

  

The annulment says that a review of the history of the marraige shows that God knew better and God did not join these two together during that ceremony.   The sacrament did not take place.  

  

Within Canon law the purpose of marraige is:  to develop a community of life and love for the procreation of children.    So, the likely annulment paperwork would be:  Inability to develop a community of life and love.  Sometimes going on to say "on the part of ...." and identifying one or both of the partners.  

  

The civil marraige did take place and any offspring are legal and were born in a state of wedlock.  Only the sacramental blessing and union did not take place.  

  

The problem with people filled with disdain talking about a group they hold in disdain is that they generally are speaking from a lack of knowlede and understanding of the topic.   I hope this information gets through the wall of disdain, but I doubt the poster is open to hearing it.  

  

  

 
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December 5, 2005, 5:21 pm PST

Making your bed

Quote From: pad1gett

 Since I don't know the details of this breakup, I will withhold comment except to say  I wish people would try harder to repair damaged marriages instead of selfishly  ending them  without trying all avenues. I was told when I married that at 16, you have made your bed.  Now lie in it and I have for 53 years without regret. There were times it would have been easier to just  say good-bye and leave but  we knew we saw something in each other and neither of us  strayed outside marriage when things got tough.  In fact, I can't remember when things weren't tough but we muddled through  and our family was intact and we have earned the happiness we have found.  I would encourage the daughters to go forward.  It never helps to hold a grudge.  Seek  help in  understanding the why in this case.
Aunita Padgett Orlando Florida

" I was told when I married that at 16, you have made your bed.  Now lie in it and I have for 53 years without regret. " 

  

When I make my bed and I don't do a good job of it or someone comes along and messes it up, I don't keep lying in it.   Because you have had no regrets, then it is fine that you have stayed.  But it is not fine for those with bad situations. 

  

The only thing worse than staying in a bad marraige for 10 years is to stay for 10 years and 1 day.  Just self-destructive behavior.   Messy bed?  Stupid to lie in it.  Get up and clean it up and make a new bed.  

  

 
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December 5, 2005, 5:25 pm PST

Church is clear: Children are legitimate

Quote From: a_n_other

In my view if you set out to get a marriage annulled then unless you make it very clear, perhaps with some sort of legal document, you are setting out to change the status of children born within that marriage.  Effectively those 3 girls have been told by their church hierarchy that they are lesser daughters to their father than they were before he obtained the annullment.  Mouthing a few platitudes about not intending things to be seen that way isn't enough - that father should get off his backside and do something ACTIVE to make it clear he values his daughters.   

  

Quite frankly Dr Phil misses the point when he says hurt people need to step up, put their hurt aside and make an effort to mend fences for the sake of the family and because we might all be dead tomorrow.  There are some people it is impossible to get along with because of the price tag they put on having a continuing relationship with them.  Mynde's father is one of those people - he's officially rewritten 31 years of the family's history and expects everyone to be happy with what he's done.  As for that expert - I take the point I'm not Catholic - annullmentsallowed on the grounds of lack of committment - I don't believe it! 

  

"unless you make it very clear, perhaps with some sort of legal document" 

  

The church does make it very clear - with legal documentation.   The child is denying and denouncing Catholic law.  She is the one on the show who is not being a good Catholic.  The Church is very clear on this.  The Children are legitimate.  

  

The author on the show was quite clear ... Seems a lot of the listeners are as deaf as Myndie and refusing to hear the truth.  The Catholic church is clear and documents it.  The kids are legitimate.  

  

 
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December 5, 2005, 5:31 pm PST

Annulment - 31 years later?

I can't quite understand why someone would think that after 31 years of marriage and 3 children - they would be entitled to an annulment.  I am a Catholic - whose 1st marriage was annulled - only after less then 2 years and no children brought into the world.   The paperwork was very complicated and time consuming. I can't believe that a marriage of 31 years should have been annulled - regardless of the situation - a person can get out of the marriage before that much time if they have such a religious conviction that they feel they have been lied to, misled, cheated out of something...  I feel that the children have the right to feel betrayed, hurt and every other emotion that they are feeling.  I would feel the same way as the "angry" daughter.  I would have been ok with the divorce - but having the marriage "eliminated" from the church - would invalidate me on some level.  I would feel that my father did not want me from the marriage - that I was only a consequence of a relationship.  The father is selfish - only thinking of his needs - not that of his daughters and could have still been a "practicing Catholic" but without receiving the sacrament... - that should have been a sacrifice that he should have been willing to make for the sake of his daughters..
 
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December 5, 2005, 5:44 pm PST

Spiritual Dificiency

Quote From: a_n_other

Mynde was allowed to believe for 20+ years she was the product of a sacrementally adequate marriage.  She's entitled to be hurt and disappointed that her father now considers his marriage to her mother deficient in the spiritual sense from the outset.  Whilst that may not make her legally illegimate I'm not surprised she feels devalued as a daughter.  The annulment allows her father to behave in Church, a place which is obviously important to her, as if the marriage to her mother hadn't taken place. 

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

Myndie has a choice.  She can choose to continue to feel hurt by wallowing for however many years the divorce and annulment took to process (they take several years to process at a minimum) or she can change her attitude and her forfeit her self-centeredness and consider that maybe the reason for all the things that were wrong in her family were because it was based upon a lie and now the lie has been revealed and everyone is "geeting real"  

  

The truth will set you free .... provided she'll get off her stranglehold of the lie of the marraige pity pot and look at the truth.    The Church doesn't say it lightly.  the condition necessary for the sacrament to take place did not exist.   Myndie will be a lot happier when she accepts the truth that her religion has clearly stated.  She is legitimate - but the sacreament did not take place.  

  

  

 
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December 5, 2005, 5:51 pm PST

You Can't Always Forgive a Parent

I don’t know what happened, because I wasn’t there, but I do know things are not what they always seem, and sometimes trying harder is just dysfunctional. 

  

Some of the opinions here are quick to suggest Mynde forgive her father and get on with her life. Others are quick to suggest keeping the family together. 

  

My mother stayed with my father, because in the early 60s the word divorce was not accepted very well, nor was it accepted in the religious communities. She also bought into the cliché, “children need their father”. Sometimes they do not! 

  

My father was and is a diagnosed sociopath among other things. He has an exceptionally high IQ; college educated, and a pillar in our community. When we were growing up, he had the perfect car, the perfect job, he was friends with high ranking elected officials, and we had the perfect house in the perfect neighborhood, the perfect yacht with membership in the local yacht club, his own private twin engine plane, and he traveled around the world enjoying what life had to offer. He was appointed to this board and that board, president of this, and leader of that. He considered those necessary achievements to make himself above reproach, and he did. He was also a locally celebrated artist. He enjoyed a life of privilege. 

  

My mother did divorce him, when I was in the third grade, but it wasn’t before my twin sister had been raped. Following that, she had what her doctors called a nervous break down and could not complete the school year. Did anyone ask questions? NO! My father was a pillar. I had also been molested when I was four. The story was that I fell on my stick horse. I guess I jumped off of the table or something. Just don’t figure. 

  

Later, my youngest sister was killed; she was 11 at the time. Then my sister that had the “nervous break” down in the third grade was killed. Then my brothers were nearly killed at different times, when our father decided his secrets were in danger of getting out. They survived against the odds. One of my brothers suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 50+ % of his body; another brother has closed head injuries and lived in a coma for a few days, but my youngest brother has massive head injuries requiring surgery. The doctors said he died three times during surgery. He is permanently disabled with seizures and unrelenting headaches today. A few years earlier he had been locked in a bathroom with no windows for six weeks. Even the baby sitter died; she knew most everything. She was just a few years older that me. Now I haven’t even addressed my mother’s and step mother’s “accidents”, poisonings and deaths. Nor have I discussed my cousins or uncle’s deaths after they disagreed with him in a way secrets might get out, and I didn’t go into my boyfriends that died or nearly died that he loathed. Looking back he was jealous. 

  

After I grew up, I went to counseling. My father got himself appointed to the board of directors at our local mental health counseling center. I changed doctors. He called me one afternoon and asked if I had ever told my psychologist that he molested me. I told him no. He said, “Ok”. He found the church that my psychologist attended and tried to get close to him, his wife and children. He even asked my doctor specific questions about me; did I mention my father was an atheist? It didn’t work. 

  

He then faked a suicide blaming too much stress; he said he was afraid his beloved wife was going to die. This was while she was in ICU from her accident having numerous surgeries. He checked himself into a local psychiatric hospital and requested my psychologist come to see him as his doctor. After a few days the hospital started taking the necessary actions for committal, so he faked a heart attack and only agreed to go to the local hospital that I happened to work at as a cardiac nurse. He wasn’t committed. There was some kind of loop-hole he fell through. 

  

 Then he proceeded to set up my doctor. (A little thing he does very well).  He discredits anyone he believes can hurt him, before they have a chance to say or do anything he deems not in his best interest. His favorite statement is, “If you are not for me, you are against me”, and he means it. 

  

He has moved to another country now, a country without extradition. Not because his activities caught up with him, but because he believes they may. Not one of us who survived takes any comfort in the fact that he is living in another country. He is only a flight away, and we all know this. 

  

He says he is a missionary and is working for one of the larger churches in the area. If you call that church and ask about him, they deny he has anything to do with the church. They do know who he is, and don’t want anything to do with him. 

  

There is so much more, but the points of this story are that things are not always what they seem. You just can NOT always forgive a parent, and even if you can, forgiveness doesn’t make things go away or change the pathology of a parent’s behavior. Forgive and carry on is sometimes like believing in a fairy tale. And no, faith doesn’t always make for a good ending or something good rise out of disaster. No one had more faith than I did growing up and even into middle age. 

  

My sisters no longer live on the face of this earth. Neither do many of my friends and relatives. They did not have to die. There lives were thrown away for someone’s convenience. They lived and I loved them. They were unique individuals. They loved the Lord and had faith, and they were cheated our of their young lives before they even know what life was about, or had a chance to be happy. 

   

 

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December 5, 2005, 5:58 pm PST

12/05 Nasty Breakups

Quote From: gandolfcnc

  

The child on the show was WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!    SO are you for calling the child a "love-child" .... because that is not what the law, the church or the father have done.   

  

The Catholic church DOE NOT make the children illegitimate.   I have an annulment and my children are legal within the church and within the civil law.    

  

I have absolutely no doubt that the reason the first wife was not on the show and her face was blocked is because there were major justifications for the divorce which she and the children didn't want to bring up because they were out to make DAD look like the bad guy.  I have no doubt and that it was a very bad marraige.   The Catholic church DOES NOT allow annulments without huge reasons.  Canon law on this topic is stringent.  

  

The mom probably was not present because the show was about the strain in the relationship between the children and the dad.  The dad obviously is the "bad guy".  Why would he want to marry a women that has no respect for his children?  What in the world in wrong with him?  Why can't he see that this other women is poison and nothing but trouble!!!  As a parent, there is nothing in the world that my children could do that would make me not have a relationship with them.  There is also not a man on the face of this earth that I would marry if he did not get along with my children.  They are FIRST!!!!!!!-WAY before the new wife.  I hope he realizes how much he is missing out on and get rid of this lady!  Find someone that is supportive of  him and his children.  Hopefully, he has protected all of his assests and made a will for his girls because if something happens to him,  this new wife will not give anything to his children.  I have seen this happen too many times.  Maybe he will realize who he married and get rid of her only to find someone special who can be a part of his life which includes his children and probably grandchildren. If not, maybe he will atleast express to his wife that his children are important and she is going to have to give him his time with them ALONE!! 

 
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December 5, 2005, 6:01 pm PST

Entymology of Terms

Quote From: miriamf

It is unfortunate that the Catholic church chose to use the term annullment for what is in essence a divorce recognized within the religion.  The idea that "the marriage was never valid" makes Mynde feel that she has been bastardized by her church.  I can imagine that Mynde is questioning everything she thought was stable in her life---her family structure,  her father as its leader, and her church community.  Nothing was said about when and how the father and his new wife came together and how Mynde's mother feels about the change in her status due to the annullment.  Perhaps Mynde feels that she is betraying her mother by accepting the new wife.  Whatever the reasons for the divorce/annullment/remarriage, these events have forever altered the family as it was.  If that means that Mynde is uncomfortable being around her father and his wife, her wishes should be respected, as she did not create the situation.  She may find it best to keep her distance and just communicate with her father on her own terms by card or by letter or by meeting him on his own once in awhile.  I think Dr. Phil erred in putting his own values/experiences in the forefront regarding his own father.  Each case is different.  There are many people out there whose relationship with a parent changes following divorce---they exist in their new reality and can do so happily.  Life changing events like divorce cause us to question who we really are, what our values really are, how we really want to behave, and who we really want to have in our lives.  It is not wrong for Mynde to take whatever time she may need to ask these questions and make these decisions for herself and I hope she'll do so without feeling guilty.  

  

The Catholic church created the concept of annulment and the words for it centuries before the non-catholic religions and legal systems decided to create a way to end a marraige other than annulment.   Catholic annulment pre-dates divroce or legal annulment. 

  

You can bet that the divorce forever altered the family long before the annulment.  It is unstated as to whether the relationship with the second wife - even if the knew each other at all - started before the divorce.  I doubt that it did.   I am pretty sure that the relationship with Penny is post divorce.  It is only unfortunate that the father waited until he wanted to remarry to bother with a church annulmnet.  However that is not uncommon.   Actually, I know a number of catholics who use it as a means of making sure they don't rush into a marraige.  They have to go through the multi-year annulment process before a second marraige.  

  

However, it is quite common for children to continue to hope that the divorce will be reversed and parents will get back together.   With or without an annulment, a second marragie could have produced this reaction from Myndie. 

  

My Father left my mother 3 days after my marraige (while I was on my honeymoon) after 32 years of marraige.  I did not denounce either parent or reject either of them.   In the years since then I am clear that they could have qualified for an annulment if either of them had ever wanted one.   This is true even though I have 4 older sisters.  I am also clear that it would not have made me illigitimate.   

  

I do agree that Myndie needs to be let go by the Father and allowed to go come to terms with the new reality in her own way and time.  He can't make her accept reality.  She has to step up to that herself.   this is one where I practice the:  When you love something, let it go.  Let it come to you in its own time.  

  

  

   

 
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December 5, 2005, 6:03 pm PST

12/05 Nasty Breakups

Quote From: gandolfcnc

  

I earned a Catholic Annulment in the early 1980s after a 10 year marraige that included the birth of 3 children.  I am extremely and personally familiar with the steps and gravity involved.  The Catholic church does not take the act of an annulment lightly.  Nobody buys them, because it just doesn't work that way.   Anybody posting claims like that had better post a whole bunch more credible evidence vs their unfounded and unsupported gossip mongering.  

  

A Catholic annulment requires the Catholic requesting the annulment - which occurs after a legal divorce - to go through a searching and fearless moral inventory of the marraige that took me over 18 hours of writing the over 50 essay questions I had to answer.  Even though my ex was a non-Catholid who had married someone else in the years between the divorce and the annulment request, he and his new wife had the opportunity - which they took - to rake me over the coals and blame me for everything that happened in the marraige.    

  

As the author on the show has stated, the essays presented by both sides demonstrated to the tribunal, which was approved by Rome upon review, that the conditions necessary for the SACRAMENT of marraige to take place at the time of the marraige did not exist, which is why the marraige did not succeed and was annuled.   This does not cause the kids to be bastards.  My kids are legal - in the civil law and the church law.   

  

I am embarrassed and ashamed of the behavior of the 2 girls who claim to be Catholics.  Their behaviors and treatment of their father is not representative of the teachings of the Catholic church.  Talk to their Priest?   If they did he should be telling them that until they start abiding by the commandment to love one another and respecting the canon laws of the church instead of acting as if they are god instead of God being God and they begin to honor their father per the commandment that they cannot receive the sacraments.   

  

After all, he had a civil divorce.  The only thing the annulment allows him to do is continue to receive the Catholic sacraments after the divorce.  

  

You would be more embarrased if you knew the behavior the father displayed, representing himself as a Catholic.  That was not disclosed on the show. The girls should be admired. They are standing up for what is morally correct and it is not and cannot be seen as a gray area. Black is black, white is white. A liar is a liar and a cheater is a cheater. Being a catholic does not mean that you are exempt from those labels simply by going to confession once a week. At what point does the forgiveness of these sins stop and help is commanded by the church? At what point does the church say, " you are not walking away from this"? 

  

There are many wonderful, faithful Catholics. But there are some who hide in the church for their own personal reasons. 

I suggest that all on this board ask Dr. Phil to please pursue the whole story. 

 

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December 5, 2005, 6:08 pm PST

mynde is not out of line

Quote From: dlab44

 I have been on both sides of the spectrum and I feel that both sides need to accept and move on!  Mynde is trying to control her father and lash out at his new wife for her own personal pain.  Divorce is an ugly thing,especially for the children, but these are adults acting like children.  The reaction to a painful situation should also be appropriate.  Mynde seams to imply that she wants a relationship with her father, but is basically stating that it should be without his new wife and if he does not do that then he is choosing her over the daughters. BULL!!!! She is not giving him any choices at all.  I am sure he married this new wife out of love, That does not mean that his daughters should love her too but understand an appreciate the fact that the new wife loves their father and makes him happy is a start.  The new wife should not push a relationship with the daughters.  So there should be some giving on both sides.  I did not necessarily like my stepmother in the beginning but I would not allow that to come between my relationship with my father.  It has been 25 yrs since my father remarried and we all get along wonderfully.  I also now get along great with my mother and stepfather.   It is not a matter of who wins or loses because in divorce everybody loses,  it is your capacity to pick up what is left and make it different.  I think Dr Phil was right on the money.
It seems she has a reason to be hurt by her father and if that involves the new wife then he should have enough respect for his daugher -and so should the new wife-( if she really loves him) to fight for a relationship with his daughter that does not include the new wife.  She came way after his girls and she should respect his relationship with them and encourage him to mend any hurtful things that have happened.
 
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