Topic : 06/21 "Throw It Out!"

Dear Dr. Phil, 

  

My mom was an extreme hoarder too.  One day years ago, at the age of 10, I picked up the trash in the bathroom floor and placed in the trashcan, only to find it redistributed on the floor a half hour later.  Then I knew that my mom had a problem that I did not understand, nor could I 'fix' it.   

  

As I grew to an adult, I asked her to seek help, but she refused repeatedly.  At the time of her death in 1992, her home looked very similar to your guest, John's.  Only she was alone.   

  

I like your 'bedside manner' Dr. Phil.  Tough or tender when needed by the patient, but always honest and direct.  I taped the show and just wanted to commend John emphatically!  His coming on the show and being honest was very COURAGOUS!   Bravo John!!  You did what I begged my mom to do, but she adamntly refused.  Only when we dare to look outside our way of thinking do we grow.   

  

Dr. Phil, what you said (if I may paraphrase) that some forms of hoarding are triggered by death of a loved one made sense.  Mom had twins and both died in first two weeks of life and it forever changed my mom.  Their deaths 'broke' my mom's spirit.  And your show made the 'family jigsaw puzzle' pieces fit together.   

  

I am at peace.  Thank you for your clear, concise, and understanding wisdom.  May you continue to have the Wisdom of Solomon bestowed on you as you help others. 

I was really interested in this topic because almost two years ago my grandfather died in his own filth and clutter.  They told us that he died of the Hantavirus, which apparently is a pulmonary condition caused by breathing dust contaminated by rat droppings.    

   

My sister and I accompanied my aunt to his trailers out in the desert to pay our last respects and attempt to salvage some small piece of our family history.  I did not get along with my grandfather because he was abusive to my mother and surrounded her with violence and filth.  My mom died at forty-four and I always resented him for causing so much internal chaos and sadness.   

   

We went to support my aunt.  When we arrived at his property, the first thing that we found was a swamp of human feces and urine immediately outside the front door.  We wore face masks, long pants, long sleeve shirts, and gloves.  The smell inside the trailer was almost unbearable and I could not believe that I was any relation to this man.  My wonderful aunt, beautiful sister, inspiring mother, all with his blood flowing through our veins.     

   

Upon entering the first of several trailers, I was so angry I began to cry and my tears seemed to spit with force from my eyes.  I believed my grandfather was a madman and I hated him even more. After about four hours of sifting through rotten food, dead rats, boxes of brand new socks and gloves- you name it- I talked my aunt into walking away.  I believe that ultimately the State set fire to the trailers.  One entire life up in smoke.    

   

I am thankful that Dr. Phil brought this subject to light for me and for other families that are living in this chaos.  I truly believe that this tragic upbringing played a role in my mother's untimely death.  I am glad that Dr. Phil did not just go to the house of this man and "throw it all out" because he would have merely recreated it all over again.  I wish someone would have been there to recognize and guide my grandfather in the same way.    

   

I wish the best for the families on the show.  They appeared to be good people that deserve to enjoy peace and love in this lifetime.    

    I am sorry  you got that "staying  at home makes you miserable" as your take on my post. I doesn't make me miserable to stay at home... to take care of the home, and my children, and my husbands other needs so that he can have the support HE needs to earn us a paycheck..... for I feel it is an honorable choice.........and one that my husband and I agreed to in the beginning of our marriage considering his career choices.  It is his misguided mis-treatment  of me, and his worse than ever disrespect for that honorable and in our case necessary choice we both made through the years,  as the problem.   That and  his "money bully"  attitudes of  control and emotional "abuse" guised as financial abuse......and other bad behaviors and attitudes on his part  that ARE the problem.  

   I have worked outside (and inside the home)  and am willing to again, but...........to hold it against me NOW.......without discussion regarding change is immature and disrespectful to me, and the job I did for years. It is HIS attitudes that are the problem. I realize I cannot change his attitudes, but I also have no intention of "jumping through hoops" this late in the game to satisfy his "attitudinal disfunctions" of his midlife crisis or inability to communicate as an adult regarding finances.  

   The nature of his two jobs made it next to impossible for me to seek any employment  early in the marriage and as long as his two careers were to be fulfilled  (as someone had to be with our children, and it is very hard to find affordable and competent care during the hours and weekends they would be needed,  much more so than a nine to five schedule. ) We also thought a PARENT to be the best child care provider.  

    It is not the staying home aspects that make me miserable, but rather the "fine print" my husband apparently has chosen to "sneak in" and his attitudes that MONEY making is all that matters   and in keeping with that ,that he therefore has "total rule and control of the money"  to the degree he has "taken all authority" over the money at this late date.  I doubt I will have very good "emotional welfare" if I am suffering financially to the degree it disrupts my emotional welfare and or my childrens security.  I would like to see how the "fat lady is going to sing" first, and then make decisions regarding the need for financial supplementation of  what I have already earned.  

     I do agree that my emotional welfare (and that of my children) is important. That is the only reason I posted to this thread in the beginning. Severly disrupted emotional welfare can set something like "hoarding" to excess in motion. His attitudes and the outcome of that may indeed start a "reaction" in one of our children that I do not see as  good for their ultimate mental health.   

    Not everyone who "prepares realistically" for the future "stashing a few nuts for the winter" should be seen as a nut themselves. However, fear of security or having  ones security and your world totally and rudely  shaken due to the lack  of or uncertainity of a secure future can precipitate UNHEALTHY hoarding.  Healthy or unhealthy hoarding many times is in fact biochemical or simply a somewhat natural reaction to security threats taken to the extreme. I was attempting to tie in the emotional aspects of how and why this may get a foothold and grow into a real problem, not just  bash the symptoms. 

  Apparently you are not thinking your suggestions through, as a day care center would be extremely emotionally and physically demanding and frankly best left to the younger more agile folks. Do you think they sit on their butts all day?  I would never take my children to such a day care center. There is much physical labor involved in day to day child care, but then you may have never done this on a daily basis 24/7?  

    I also find it interesting that "caring for children" is the first thing you think of for a stay at home mom that may have to or want to  return to the work force, as if there are  no other imaginable  talents within a person whose prime job has been caring for her own children. Many other skills go with being a stay at home, and I have many of those.........not to mention,   past  and present employment skills to include  artistic talents and that is what I am pursuing at current, portriats of children as fairies etc for part time work. I am realistic enough however to realize this, to  include day care work, is  simply NOT ample for  the full time support of three (and those are  just the 2 minor children still at home)  or more persons.  

   What planet have you been on? Day care workers are among the least paid workers out there.  Job security  in the day care industry is not the best, and yes it is very physically demanding. I will admit I may have the "brains for it" due to raising four children, but certainally not the physical staminia. That is is about as realistic as your final suggestion  of illegally getting money rather than legally getting "my/our financial  due" via  my marriage. You must have a very low opinion of women indeed.  

   As for standing on a corner prostituting yourself, rather than enforcing your rights of money legally earned and entitled to  by marriage and services rendered.......... that is a "silly" prideful statement some women may  make in jest,  but again not very well thought out.  

  I personally would rather go to court to get what is mine legally, (if I can get the money for that endeavor) than to illegally "sell myself" to the highest bidder, with who knows what diseases.  Getting arrested, lowering my self esteem to that level and doing such a thing to damage my and my childrens emotional welface make NO sense. I know you know that, or I hope you do.  Maybe you need to "get some pride" if that is your idea of a job. Please I know even you are intelligent enough to see that as "foolish pride"  statement , clearly not common sense.  

I had.....well still have.....(sort of)  a "saving stuff"  desire.  (I don't like using the words hoarding problem, sounds too harsh).   I like my stuff.  I realize I have too much of it.  I'm neat and organized, all boxes labeled, stacked in a tidy manner.  Common sense tells me there is no need to keep it, it's just for memory sake.   

   

I decided I would create a  photo album of those "treasures" that I find difficult to part with.  Like the first (glass) glass the children used.  Was a big day, they graduated from plastic kids cup to a....(glass) glass.  There's only one glass  left, the others broke through the years, but that one remaning glass is a treasure.   

   

My cellar is full of such "memories."  My strategy is to photograph the special items,  (photograph each item separately, one picture, one item, needs to be properly "displayed").....box the items, donate to Salvation Army.     

   

When I finally gave away my husband's favorite pair of shoes, I polished them, put a note on the box telling a little of the wonderful man who used to wear these shoes.  Maybe the person receiving them will treasure them, treat them nicely, keep them clean.   

   

Letting go of stuff is like letting go of your life.  My life is full of wonderful memories.  The photo album will be a sort of record of  good times.  I'll include a little story with each photo, keep the memories.........not the stuff.   

   

Hopefully the photo album idea will help others who have treasures that are difficult ot part with.   

Avoidance, Perfectionism, Decision-Making, Responsibility...these are the 4 characteristics they say Hoarders share.  Sounds unbelievable, doesn't it?  As a child, having to crawl over a mountain full of clothing and who knows what else, to get out the door...to walk through the dining room, do you think I would have believed this???  No way! 

  

My mom is a hoarder.  So were my grandparents.  So is my aunt.  So is my brother.  "Extreme" when used with a hoarder just means they have more space to fill up.  Hoarding is in the "mind", it's about the relationship with things.  You can be an "Extreme Hoarder" living in ONE room.  It all depends if you can part with that used up toilet paper, etc. roll or not, what your relationship with that object is.   

Now they are calling it a possible spectrum disorder of OCD.  Lots of research left to be done.  Until I learned about why hoarders hoard, I was a ball of anger towards my mother for allowing us to live like that.  To live like she does today, in an apartment across the street from her hoarded up house.  She won't LET her 6 kids help her.  This is because the anxiety over us touching her things is so great.  She feels responsible for the things being used properly, to go to the correct person, she needs to SEE everything in order to know it's there.  She is mentally ill.  I know this now, didn't know it as a child getting yelled at for throwing something away.  Dr. Phil should consider doing a show about children who grow up in that environment.   

  

There is a group for children of hoarders...there are groups for hoarders...spouses of hoarders...friends of hoarders....there is support so others can know they aren't alone and can learn about the disorder of Hoarding.  I started a site www.childrenofhoarders.com, and there are lots of links to direct you where to learn about hoarding or where to find support.  There is also the Obsessive Compulsive Foundation...they have a Hoarding Section of their website.   

:) donna 

  

  Many would call this a "justification". However, I would like to add that many women who "shop too much" , spend foolishly , hoard, or do other illogical things are often  reacting (without knowing what or why that is ) in what they see as a "safe" manner  to their husbands UNHEALTHY workalcoholism, emotional unavailibity, drinking, or  bully like unrealistic expectations  and or to their  husbands male oriented  double standard thinking controlalcoholism.   

     Men, it seems, have an amazing ability to deny and shut down emotions or  dealing with irresponsibility on THEIR part and deal with this by  projecting blame for their problems (stunted maturity and other brain dead expectations of their spouse and or the WHYS of being a self centered  "control freaks"). Their wives, often react in a PERFECTLY logical (to them anyway) way by this logic, "If hubby is foolishly working when he doesn't need to simply to avoid emotional intimacy and his own offspring, then why not "foolishly spend" the MONEY he claims is being earned " for his family"?. They hope to bully the bully or simply jolt or wake him up to his "problem". This backfires and now THEY have cultivated a problem as a result of using "logic" to solve the problem.  

 Or in the case of  a spouses alcoholism,  they  try to make an illogical problem contain some usable logic for them by reasoning "if HE is going to act so irresponsibly why should I have all the responsibility". The equally opposite "logical approach", can be, "He is acting VERY irresponsible, so I must be SUPER responsible". They take purchasing/hoarding  of  needed items into OVERKILL.  Many wives are provoked and "set up" by inconsistancy (money wise) on the part of their "double standard" thinking husbands  to have HIS problem PROJECTED onto her. She may be "logically" reacting to his ILLOGICAL actions.  

    Dr. Phil has had many shows that point out, acting out, and such often can be seen as a SYMPTOM to a spouses illogical or self centered or control oriented, or male dominated thinking . Such is the case with "burning bed" stories. A woman, "acting logically" to her situation of being beaten  and also under the  daily fear of  he own death death, takes matters into her hand and "kills him first" to save herself BECAUSE she could find "no way out". ILLOGICAL  becomes LOGICAL.   

  You can bully a bully to get him to go away, ignore it, remove yourself, (which is the hardest thing to do if your bully is your spouse) or attempt to cope and "reason" your way out. A dose of their own medicine (giving back JUST what you get) escalates the situation.  

   Many "disorders" are simply coping skills taken to the extreme.  Many times men can be very successful in having the "victim" set up to be the perpetrator.  This is made much easier by the thinking and worship of money, and or that money making is  the GODKING in America and the only endeavor of value. Society ALREADY validates a man, who thinks money making MAKES him a KING. Many men, think this Makes a man a man. (women are guilty more often of the thought that a WOMAN is NOT a woman unless she works, so they have applied men oriented society thinking in America to themselves and I fear women are forgetting what OTHER factors it takes to be a woman on account of this. Their WHOLE worth revolves around the dollar they make.  

   Many "victims" not understanding the WHY or WHAT IS aspects of being on the receiving end of someone elses "disordered" thinking, APPEAR to be the cause of problems  or become disorder in THEIR  own thinking. Most  disordered thinking USUALLY does not occur in a bubble or a vacuum.  

  It is very easy to say "get out"  "throw it out" or "I would rather ______________ than put up with that, however such disordered  people are VERY effective at obtaining for their "victims" prey, spouse etc  isolation, disbelief  from any support system and other financial and emotional controls that in effect seem to "cut off all means of escape" and play on a womans emotional "nurturing" and gender induced "guilt" and SOCIETIES illogical views to support their DENIAL of their own problems. Now, two people have a "problem" one is disordered and the other is using the wrong "coping" skills to deal with the disordered thinking of a spouse (to an outsider) anyway . 

   Men  (glad to say not all, or so I have been told) are very capable of  financial abuse(and working women can be abused financially also so that is not ALWAYS protection against this problem).   Such men capitilize on the womans bond and sense of responsibility towards her spouse, and  her children and therefore learn how to gain and use control of the childrens "loyalities" to continue the  emotional abuse they inflict on their wives/girlfriends while  they themselves remain in complete DENIAL regarding their own dysfuctional isms and thinking. Society inadvertantly condones faulty thinking regarding POWER and who is entitled to it.  

   In short, for the object of "projection"  nothing done to improve the situation helps, and attempts to get "relief" or out can often escalate the situation or "turn up the heat".  They are "trained" by hurt, to not even try. Sometimes the evidence of "emotional or other abuse" is seen in what people spend, how they keep themselves and their house. Anxiety, anger, fear, rage or illogical justification for illogical behavior. Many many counselors seem to not know this, or overlook it  go to work on the one with OBVIOUS symptoms and the original perpatraitor gets off for the second time and those counselors  that do such  often make the situation worse by BLAMING the one evidencing OBVIOUS symptoms.  

   If one is suffering from "heat exhaustion" we don't condem them for their inability to just get out of the heat, they CAN"T because of the heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The ball of string, starts SOMEWHERE. Same can be said of hoarding in many cases.  

I was hoping some of the messages would be helpful, and there is a lot of good information in the mix here. Thank y'all for sharing.

I never knew anyone growing up who hoarded things and if I did, they never let anyone know.  I have found that more and more people now are hoarders, my in-laws especially.  I have inherited this problem!  My in-laws own four rental properties plus the house they live in.  ALL of the rental homes were not being rented, but instead housing junk.  I am not exaggerating when I say that the four bedroom, 2 1/2 bath, 2 car garage, full basement, with living, dining, kitchen, family room was FULL of stuff.  I thought my husband was kidding when he said we had to unload a whole house full of stuff.  I thought he meant just furniture!  I mean this house was full from the front door to the back, and from the floor to ceiing!  It took us a week just to empty the foyer and hallway!   We started this house three years ago and we are just now getting to the garage and two bedrooms left.  I even found original, brand new, still in the package, shower curtains from the 1960's and fabrics, etc.  I don't have time to try to sell them to collectors or on ebay...so they were thrown away.  We have had 1-800-got-junk to come get it, but the other family members want to see each and every item in case it is valuable, inheritable, or important before being thrown away.  Luckily we did do it the thorough way as we found priceless coins and jewelry collected since the late 1800's in the family.  I totally understand what the families of hoarders are going through.  We have been able to keep up with the house they live in and checking in on a weekly basis so a problem doesn't arise.  I don't know what else to do.  These folks are in their 80's and very very stubborn.  Good Luck to all of you with the hoarding problem!    Why is it becoming more and more of a problem today?  I also buy, renovate, and sell homes, as well as being a realtor and this problem is everywhere.

My husband of 10 years can't throw anything out.  We live in the house he grew up in. It is a two family home which we are using as one. On the second floor there is a 2 bedroom appartment with a kitchen, living room, and bathroom. In the kitchen you will find all kinds of stuff  from silverware to pots and pans that we don't  use or need. Closets are filled to the brim, just thrown in not even put away neatly. I am really  embarrassed. I never let anyone come to my home. I have just one friend that I let come. My daughter who just got married, won't let her new husband come over, becasue she is embarrassed. The house is very old and needs a lot of work, but he just talks about fixing things, but that never happends. Over a year ago he decided to knock out the bathroom upstairs, and replace it with new stuff. That never happened. All I have now is a small room with no walls. You can't even get into the room because he has stuff blocking the door. The yard is just as bad, junk cars, tires, all kinds of junk. I don't even want to go out in my yard, becasue when I do I get so angry.  Just looking at the stuuff drives me nuts. I have tallked till i'am blue in the face about how unhappy I am, but he doesn't change anything. I do realize that he can't help it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  It is really great to be able to vent. Thank you!  Ginny F. - Taunton MA

I am not a child of a hoarder, but a whife of one. I hope this web site can help me out. Thank You    

   

Ginny