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Topic : 06/26 Twisted Love

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Created on : Friday, January 27, 2006, 02:41:03 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1

(Original Air Date: 02/02/06) Charles says he has exhausted his relationship with his wife of 19 years, and he's ready to try an alternative lifestyle. Instead of getting a divorce, Charles wants to explore polyfidelity -- a relationship where he is shared between his wife and his mistress. The mistress says she'll give it a try, but his wife, Tracy, says the thought makes her sick. Can Charles convince his wife to share him for the sake of their marriage? And what does Dr. Phil think? Share your thoughts, join the discussion.

 

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February 1, 2006, 3:17 pm PST

Comparing apples to oranges

Quote From: juliebgg

As I just posted in response to another message, why bother getting married if you aren't going to love honor and cherish, and forsake all others?  As for the wife on the show, I'd kick the bum out swift and hard! Let him have his cake, he doesn't sound like much of a prize!  She wouldn't be losing much and may have alot to gain such as improving her self esteem.

The Charles in question is a poor candidate for a polyamorous relationship.  It's obvious he has a lot of issues to work out about his own needs and his marriage and he's trying to fix them by running to a new relationship.  That is a very bad idea.  Regardless of the very real problem of strongarming his wife to enter this relationship scenerio, Charles is doomed to failure as he will just take his current problems into his new format without solving them.  Even if the wife were willing and enthusiastic, I'd discourage them from taking this path before getting considerable professional counseling first. 

  

The whole conflict with Charles and his wife is a separate issue than whether polyamorous relationships can work and be healthy.   

  

My wife and I, together now eighteen years, started dating as high-school sweethearts.  We lost our viriginity to each other and were each other's only sexual or amorous experience.  Then four years ago we realized that most of our friends were in long-term polyamorous relationships and contrary to our notions of polyamory as irresponsible swinging we saw that these people were truly committed to each other and were raising healthy kids.  They were the most responsible people we knew, taking care of commitments and obligations, covering every health issue, nuturing each other's growth.  In short, we saw that the notion could work.  We also did some introspection and long discussion and decided that this well reflected our personal notions of love as a plentiful personal resource that could be shared beyond a single partner. 

  

Now my wife has a boyfriend, a very nice man with an adolescent son whom I respect and trust to treat my wife's emotional needs with gentleness and consideration.  When she goes to spend a weekend with him don't feel jealousy -- I know too well that we are truly each other's primary partner and mate so I feel no danger that she will leave me for him.  I feel gratified and almost jubilant at the thought that my wife is getting a chance to experience the joys of discovering a new love and exploring new romantic terrain.  When she gets home we chat in bed about her date, like two schoolgirls giggling under the covers, sharing the experience between us and bringing what she's learned into our relationship. 

  

I also have a secondary relationship.  She's engaged to another man, a deeply intelligent fellow whom I've been glad to call a friend for a number of years.  She's a good friend to my wife, in fact my wife first encouraged me to date her, and they often go shopping or the like.  To those who say polyamory is all about sex, I can say that I am romantically devoted to this woman despite the fact that due to her current pursuit of an enginerring degree, a 100-mile separation, and the time she needs to spend with her fiance, we've only been sexually involved once in nearly eighteen months.  She broadens my perspective on life and enriches my soul in many ways other than sexual.  When circumstances permit we'll resume a more active sexual life, but that will be just another course in the banquet of our relationship. 

  

There are healthy poly relationships and there is Charles'  situation.  I'd advise his wife to take a deep look at whether she wishes to remain with a man who is obviously unwilling to heal a fractured marriage and is seeking a shortcut in extramarital sexual satisfaction. 

 
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February 1, 2006, 3:36 pm PST

Don't be so sure

Quote From: judyblue22

Well, he obviously has never counselled any happily poly families....come to think of it, I don't know of any poly families that have ever needed counseling.  Must be something in it then, no? 

 Just because YOU don't know of any poly families that have needed counseling doesn't mean that Dr. Phil hasn't run across them.  I agree with juliebgg...what's the point of getting married if you aren't going to "forsake" all others???? Isn't that part of the vows you took when you got married, or did you purposely leave them out?  I have friends whom I share my feelings and emotions with, BUT I don't have to sleep with them to get my sexual needs met!!

Happily Monogomous
 
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February 1, 2006, 4:00 pm PST

My Opinion

UMMM...it sounds silly for me to say this I know, but Poly, like Swinging, ISN'T for everybody. It's NOT supposed to be! It takes rare individuals to be able to do what we do with any amount of security. If ur marriage is insecure no amt of either lovestyle will improve it, it will in fact DAMAGE it. The question I would ask "vanilla" types is this: What are you so afraid of? 

  

Sex is a joyous and beautiful activity created by our Father. 

  

The ability to love one more then one is a function of the Fathers love for us. (Last I checked he didn't play faves and loved us all equally)  

  

As a member of both lovestyles i have to say. It's not abt the act of sex. Its abt loving each other enough to share ur love with other people.  

 
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February 1, 2006, 4:20 pm PST

Counseling for the polyamorous

Quote From: sheltie2

 Just because YOU don't know of any poly families that have needed counseling doesn't mean that Dr. Phil hasn't run across them.  I agree with juliebgg...what's the point of getting married if you aren't going to "forsake" all others???? Isn't that part of the vows you took when you got married, or did you purposely leave them out?  I have friends whom I share my feelings and emotions with, BUT I don't have to sleep with them to get my sexual needs met!!

Happily Monogomous

As a member of the polyamorous community I can say unequivocally that poly folk do indeed seek counseling, perhaps more often on a per capita basis than monogamous couples.  Relationships are complex between two people, frought with unintended hurts and unexpected consequences.  Relationships between three people are that much more complex, all the more difficult to understand and navigate for the lack of positive poly role models in our culture and media to emulate. 

  

Nobody is saying that loving more than one person suddenly removes all those complications, obstacles, and hurts that occur in a mono relationship.  Polyamory is simply another model that allows people to love one another in a different configuration than that which is the norm (in our culture).  Polyamory can allow needs to be met by one partner that cannot be satisfied by another, but it also can create unexpected new conundrums that one would never have to face with a single partner.  

  

A large percentage of the poly community belongs to poly support groups.  These groups provide advice, insight, and a chance to find a workable model for relationships.  They provide a place to find answers to such questions as:  How do you schedule your time between lovers? (scheduling issues typically top jealousy as the primary problem in the polyamorous)  How open are you with your relationship dynamics in front of your children?  How do you approach the subject of polyamory with potential new dates?  How open are you with your relationship structure with employers who may legally discriminate or fire you (in most states) just for that reason?  How does you present one's lifestyle to a television show whose audience is likely to be very hostile to the idea? 

  

I will never evangelize polyamory.  It is not for everyone.  It should not be a way to fix problems in a current marriage.  I know many, many people whom I would strongly recommend against trying polyamory, and I think that advice goes for Charles and his wife as well.  I will say this about polyamory though -- to my mind the biggest advantage polyamory has over monogamy is that when there are relationship problems, you always have a shoulder to cry on and a sympathetic ear available.  I cannot begin to describe how comforting it is to be able to have your wife console you after a painful breakup, or to return the favor.  Comforting a loved one, bringing them joy in times of pain, nurturing them through the rough spots is really what partnership is all about.  It doesn't really matter if that partnership is between two people, or between three or more. 

 

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February 1, 2006, 4:22 pm PST

Twisted Charles

To Charles' Wife: 

  

You deserve to be cherished, appreciated, respected and to feel like the one and only love of your husband's life! Charles is a selfish and immature. He doesn't have a clue about what real love is and doesn't cherish, appreciate or respect you. I know it is VERY difficult to break free from a marriage, especially when you still love your husband. But I can tell you from my own personal experience that you will find happiness like you have never experienced before if you have the courage to put yourself first and get away from this selfish, emotionally abusive man. Get into counselling now! Once you do find your own self worth, and go on to form a relationship with someone else who treats you with the worth you deserve, you will look back on this nightmare and not believe that you ever allowed yourself to be treated in such a way! I know it is very, very difficult to ignore your heart (when you are in love) but PLEASE listen to those who believe in you and know there is a better life for you without Charles! You are in my thoughts. Good luck. 

 

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February 1, 2006, 4:28 pm PST

Twisted Charles

To Charles' Wife, Tracy: 

  

You deserve to be cherished, appreciated, respected and to feel like the one and only love of your husband's life! Charles is a selfish and immature. He doesn't have a clue about what real love is and doesn't cherish, appreciate or respect you. I know it is VERY difficult to break free from a marriage, especially when you still love your husband. But I can tell you from my own personal experience that you will find happiness like you have never experienced before if you have the courage to put yourself first and get away from this selfish, emotionally abusive man. Get into counselling now! Once you do find your own self worth, and go on to form a relationship with someone else who treats you with the worth you deserve, you will look back on this nightmare and not believe that you ever allowed yourself to be treated in such a way! I know it is very, very difficult to ignore your heart (when you are in love) but PLEASE listen to those who believe in you and know there is a better life for you without Charles! You are in my thoughts. Good luck. 

 
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February 1, 2006, 4:42 pm PST

02/02 Twisted Love

Quote From: iguanahey

As a member of the polyamorous community I can say unequivocally that poly folk do indeed seek counseling, perhaps more often on a per capita basis than monogamous couples.  Relationships are complex between two people, frought with unintended hurts and unexpected consequences.  Relationships between three people are that much more complex, all the more difficult to understand and navigate for the lack of positive poly role models in our culture and media to emulate. 

  

Nobody is saying that loving more than one person suddenly removes all those complications, obstacles, and hurts that occur in a mono relationship.  Polyamory is simply another model that allows people to love one another in a different configuration than that which is the norm (in our culture).  Polyamory can allow needs to be met by one partner that cannot be satisfied by another, but it also can create unexpected new conundrums that one would never have to face with a single partner.  

  

A large percentage of the poly community belongs to poly support groups.  These groups provide advice, insight, and a chance to find a workable model for relationships.  They provide a place to find answers to such questions as:  How do you schedule your time between lovers? (scheduling issues typically top jealousy as the primary problem in the polyamorous)  How open are you with your relationship dynamics in front of your children?  How do you approach the subject of polyamory with potential new dates?  How open are you with your relationship structure with employers who may legally discriminate or fire you (in most states) just for that reason?  How does you present one's lifestyle to a television show whose audience is likely to be very hostile to the idea? 

  

I will never evangelize polyamory.  It is not for everyone.  It should not be a way to fix problems in a current marriage.  I know many, many people whom I would strongly recommend against trying polyamory, and I think that advice goes for Charles and his wife as well.  I will say this about polyamory though -- to my mind the biggest advantage polyamory has over monogamy is that when there are relationship problems, you always have a shoulder to cry on and a sympathetic ear available.  I cannot begin to describe how comforting it is to be able to have your wife console you after a painful breakup, or to return the favor.  Comforting a loved one, bringing them joy in times of pain, nurturing them through the rough spots is really what partnership is all about.  It doesn't really matter if that partnership is between two people, or between three or more. 

 Again...when I have relationship problems,I have friends that give me a "shoulder to cry on and a sympathetic ear" without sleeping with them. Plus if you didn't have sexual relations with your "friends" there would be no "painful breakup" for your wife to have to console you over, or visa versa.  HELLO????  Instead of  worring about scheduling time with your lovers and all your other quandries you mentioned, why don't you get a HOBBY that would fill up your time with something constructive!

Happily Monogomous
 
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February 1, 2006, 4:48 pm PST

Your opinion

Quote From: mobabe

UMMM...it sounds silly for me to say this I know, but Poly, like Swinging, ISN'T for everybody. It's NOT supposed to be! It takes rare individuals to be able to do what we do with any amount of security. If ur marriage is insecure no amt of either lovestyle will improve it, it will in fact DAMAGE it. The question I would ask "vanilla" types is this: What are you so afraid of? 

  

Sex is a joyous and beautiful activity created by our Father. 

  

The ability to love one more then one is a function of the Fathers love for us. (Last I checked he didn't play faves and loved us all equally)  

  

As a member of both lovestyles i have to say. It's not abt the act of sex. Its abt loving each other enough to share ur love with other people.  

 The last I checked...the Father's love for us doesn't include sex with your friends...HE calls it  adultery if your married and fornication if you're not! Sorry, but you better check your source again!
 
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February 1, 2006, 6:08 pm PST

No matter what way you slice it , ITS CHEATING

Quote From: judyblue22

It is really really difficult to tell people the secret needs and desires one has. So many people have repressive, guilt ridden feelings about their own sexuality and feel that being open and honest about their sexuality would make them unlovable.  Your partner took the big risk of telling you the things he would really like to do-that is really scary in a relationship.  Have you told him YOUR secrets too? 

  

Once you know what each of you desire, then it is just a matter of negotiating ways to meet those desires. There are lots of options, from role playing to trading nights to opening your marriage to others. If you both are committed to making each other happy, you can find a solution.  

  

We have developed some rules for problem solving communications that help us find answers to our problems:  

  1. It is important to understand each other well-to know where each other's sensitivities are.  When you are calm and reasonable is the time to talk about your triggers and how they affect you. It is hard to tell someone the doubts and fears that trigger insecurity. After all...you are insecure about them.  This step is hard but it is important. You can agree that you will always be sure not to touch on certain things. You want to communicate not wound.
  2. It is best to wait until anger and upset fades to discuss relationship issues. Set a meeting time for when you will be rested, relaxed and not rushed. Sometimes we prepare for a communication meeting by making love :)
  3. The first step is for both of you to identify the problems. Be prepared for your partner's problem(s) NOT to be the same as yours. At this meeting, make it your goal to completely understand all aspects of HIS problem and have him try his best to understand yours.
  4. You are trying to understand here-not defend yourself or blame the other. Don't do any 'historical' talks. Looking backwards with blame or recriminations is pointless and wastes precious time and emotional energy. You may want to skewer him with exactly WHY you have been cold and distant, but focus instead on defining the problem from his point of view and understanding his needs and explaining your own to him.
  5. Once you are able to explain to him his problem to him and he can do the same for you-you understand the problem(s). Now take a break of 2-3 days. You have to digest the information and get over any anger or hurt that arose thus far. This is the crucial step-don't rush to solutions.
  6. Once you feel ready to meet again,  brainstorm for ideas that will solve the problems. The only rule with this phase is that you have to solve all of the problems, not just your own. Don't evaluate the answers, just generate them.  Dream here, make the perfect answers, make ugly answers, make up any answer that solves the problems. The answer you don't say because it is stupid may just be the idea he needs to hit on a good solution.
  7. Take some time to explore the options. Check out the costs, available resources, think about them, maybe consult anyone that might be affected.
  8. Then choose one solution to try out. Give yourselves a time period to try out this solution-a day, a week , a month.  After the time is up, meet to evaluate how it worked.
I feel for you.  Please note that even if your husband said he wont do it if your NOT OK with it.  That is still not acceptable for him to MANIPULATE or pressure you do do ANYTHING you are not comfortable with it.  Like Dr Phil says...."his dictionary says "polyfidelity" means CHEATING IN HIS BOOK.  Bless you twisted for having the courage to write.
 
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February 1, 2006, 6:23 pm PST

polyamory and needs

Quote From: paganmamma

Lots of replies to this topic proclaim "polyfidelity" as "sick" and other such derogatory terms.  What makes this particular situation "twisted" I suppose is the order in which these discussions are happening. 

  

For this set of relationships to be "poly", Charles perhaps would have fared better to discuss his desire to shift the sexual exclusivity aspect of his marriage commitment with his partner before bringing someone new into the relationship. 

  

Unfortunately, people like Charles (who may very well be capable of a poly relationship- or may not) have few role models or encouragement when setting out in relationships.  

  

With serial monogamy on the rise, one must consider the OPTION for CONSENTING people to explore poly-relationships.  In a polyamourous relationship, one's love for a second (or third, or...) person does not negate the love for other partner(s).  People in poly relationships are strting from a place of trust and security with one another.  They are happy when their partner is enjoying a Loving relationship, and do not need to be the  sole source of their partner's joy. 

  

  

paganmama makes a good point at the end of her posting.  That in a polyamorous relationship one person isn't the only one that is there to meet all of  the other person's needs.  I am not talking sex here either.   

  

In our mobile society we have lost the community and family structure that society had in the past.  There were close friends that had known us most of our lives, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, all close enough for a relationship that meets some of our needs.   

  

In our current society, it isn't even thought to be good for a marriage if one spouse has an interest the the other spouse doesn't and goes on to pursue it.  This is especially true if there is or may be contact with those of the opposite sex.  An example would be, if a woman enjoyed dancing and the husband didn't.  If she goes dancing, then society says she is "cheating" on him, even if he knows and approves.  Sometimes, he is even at the dance with her, but not dancing.   

  

In my opinion, a truely good marriage/relationship  allows both/all involved to grow to thier maximum potential. 

  

Kat 

 
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