Messages By: orsibeth

Being gay is not a choice and leaving out the bible and God will make this issue not so difficult to understand.  I grew up in a "Christian" home (excepting Jesus Christ as my savior, la lalalalalal). I now have no use for any religion because of the I"m here to judge you attitude of most "Christians" 

My youngest brother was gay and we knew from the time he was about 5.  Choice, I think not.  There have been so many studies on this issue you could go from right to left and never agree  or strongly agree.  Stop judging these people and start loving them.  I will agree some are hard to stomach when it is slammed in your face constantly but believe me OUR (United States) sociality is the reason for this.  Judging them, treating them like freaks and hoping if you chastise them enough they will be "straight"  Get over it.  If just the  so called "Christians" in this country treated fellow Christians as the scriptures teach this would be a much better place to live.  You know following the 10 commandments and all.  No lying, stealing, cheating on you mate, not obeying the laws of the land, and the big one constant gossip about your fellow Christians and contemning everyone who doesn't believe what you believe to hell.   LOVE LOVE LOVE not judgment 

"until you are willing to admit to God that homosexuality is a sin and nothing less just like alcoholism and stealing are sins, you will never be saved and you will never be free from this sin in your life." 

I don't agree at all. Never be saved? So are you saying that those that drink and steal can't be saved either? When did the Blood of Jesus become so selective or impotent? 

Also Scripture does not say that "He will give homosexuals over to a debased mind". It says in Romans that certain people had (first) turned away from God and THEN they turned away from what was NATURAL (Greek word "phusikos") to that which was UNNATURAL to them. For an excellent write up on this passage in Romans I highly suggest your read the article found on the www.gaychurch.org web site titled "What is Natural?" It's located in the section of the site titled "Gay and Christian?" This web site is a sister site with Justin's web site (Justin was on the show). The link to the Gay and Christian section is below along with a link to the "What is Natural?" article. 

Gay and Christian?  

http://www.gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/gay_and_christian_yes.htm  

"What is Natural?" http://www.gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/calling_the_rainbow_nation_home/7d_gac_clobber_passages_what_is_natural.htm  

And more great articles on salvation and being gay... 

http://www.gaychurch.org/The_Word/Salvation/whosoever.htm  

http://www.gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/calling_the_rainbow_nation_home/3_gac_are_homesexuals_condemned_to_hell.htm  

In the "Gay and Christian?" section you will find every scripture used by some against homosexuals discussed. I suggest you read through these articles. You will find that your opinion (doctrine) is only one and that Christians interpret these passages differently. 

And yes there are other Christians out there who believe that gays are part of God's creation too. At last count there were over 3,550 Gay "Welcoming" congregations out there. Again I cite the church directory on the www.gaychurch.org web site as proof of this. 

There is absolutely no scripture in the Old Testament nor the New Testament which literally mentions what we in modern times would consider to be sexual activity by those who are exclusively homosexual. In the 3 chapters of the Bible which literally mention same-gender sexual activity, the situation is the pagan worship of fertility gods and/or goddesses by heterosexuals who have gone to a pagan temple or other place of worship to make a sacrifice of male "seed" to the false gods to insure more human offspring by those heterosexuals in relationship with women.  

One must read Leviticus chapters 18 through 20 in complete context where the Israelites are told not to follow the cultural/religious practices of the Canaanites which includes the worship of Asherah, aka Astarte, the Canaanite fertility goddess, and her male co-hort, Ba'al, aka Milcom or Molech (both words mean "king").  A male holy (Kodesh) person serving the goddess or god in that situation was called a "sodomite" elsewhere in the bible. "Kodesh" the word mistranslated as "sodomite" (in other Bible books) is literally a "holy" (person, place, or thing) in the Hebrew Language. 

Often this holy person representing the goddess Asherah would dress up in female drag and the male (definitely hetersosexual) would have sex with the male holy person and in the worshipper's mind and spirit, it was as if he was having sex with the goddess herself and not with a male at all.  

The only other place in the Bible where same-gender sexual activity is condemned is in Romans Chapter 1, In that chapter, the context where that takes place is also in a pagan fertility temple.  

To some ignorant right-wing Bible-thumpers, there is only one sin in that chapter; but, the real truth is that at the end of the chapter there is a whole list of other sins which those "thumpers" are guilty of  themselves. But, they act like those don't exist.  

Added note here: I did graduate work in theology at Oral Roberts University in the latter 1970s. The Roberts family and the university is in denial of the fact that Oral and Evelyn Roberts' first born son, Ronald Oral Roberts, left the closet after I went to ORU and he openly admitted to several people I knew that he was gay. Troy Perry, founder of the MCC denomination, wrote about Ronald in one of his books. A former local MCC pastor here in Tulsa told me that Ron and she were friends and that he definitely was gay. 

I always thought good Christians didn't judge others...granted I wasn't raised attending church but I do beleive in GOD...I just think that a lot of christians preach but don't practice what they preach... 

I have three small children and I will teach them to be accepting of others whether they are black, white, asian, purple, green, pink , gay or straight...isn't that what makes the world go round...DIVERSITY... 

I have a lot of gay friends and they are probably the most wonderful, caring, non-judgemental people you will ever meet and yet everyday for them they encounter mean spirited and judgemental individuals...do you think that is easy for them...is it the life you would CHOOSE?...I doubt it...but the fact of the matter is they are who they are and they deserve love and acceptance the same as anyone else...have you ever stopped to think that they have feeling also that can be hurt just as easily as yours?...walk a day in their shoes and maybe you would understand... 

Whatever is clear in the Bible, it is not that homosexuality is a sin.  

Jesus himself did not condemn it which, considering the fiery condemnations it is given by self-proclaimed Bible Christians, is very unclear. 

In the New Testament the only reference is Romans I which I have explained elsewhere referes to heterosexual men, not homosexuals. 

The famous passages from Leviticus are notoriously ambiguous and have given rise to multiple translations. 

Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 appears to condemn male homosexual behavior, but in fact only refers to temple prostitution. Even if it did refer to lesbian and gay relationships, it would not be applicable to Christians today, any more than are the other 613 laws which make up the Jewish Holiness Code. It is less than genuine for a Christian teleminister or theologian to imply that these verses are still valid for the beliefs and conduct of Christians, while stating that the remaining laws of the Holiness Code are not applicable.  

Be very careful when accepting your translations as 'clear' and definitive. Bible scholars are not so clearly in agreement.