Messages By: wildwood

Nikkipvn 

 Again thanks. I feel that whenever someone removes what you DID or ARE saying and inserts words (with very negative connotations that demean or change the intent  of the post entirely) of what a poster is saying then  proceeds to argue against their own words (that they inserted) ,  or take personal offense..........they must have a problem with maturity. Ditto for the "personal chat and recipe sharing" monopoly on a board regarding a particular topic having NOTHING to do with cooking,  again seems to be a feeble attempt to "make it all about me and what I want to talk about" or  a "ONLY my viewpoint matters"....... attitude with no respect to other posters here for an entirely different reason.  

To resort to taking personal these same post (which you have altered by inserting your own words with negative connotations and therefore  deliberately  changed from  the original content and intent ) after you have substituted you OWN words in someone elses post, is the equiviliant of arguing with/insulting yourself. That is another  way of making it all about YOU.  

I have been around the block quite a few times myself and of course I have my own viewpoints about "what works for me" and likewise hope others will allow some consideration to my RIGHT to do that.  I have  grown up, enough to know, gee........not everyone has my own life experiences, background, choices or whatever and is free to make their own decisions and have their own opinions and deserves respect for their individuality and choices.  

I, like you, have tried to not  to have a "set in stone" attitude about my own opinions, as I agree till the day we die we can all learn something that might allow is to look differently on a subject. We may not change "our own" way of doing things, but we might "soften" our harsh judgements of others if we are open to respectful consideration of "another view".  

I am not concerned with  prohibiting anyones right to disagree, just very perplexed as to why my actual words/postings  kept being changed into something  extremely negative, and then argued with. I mean argue with what WAS said, not what you changed/assumed it to say. Many people use most, some, many,  etc. more as a way of  "generalizing", and know that NOT everyone thinks the same. I would say that women nowdays are pretty "split" on the who makes the money/ is the breadwinner issue for a multitude of "personal lifestyle" reasons.  

Money, according to statistics, is the number one reason people divorice. I would say that makes "money issues" in marriages very common. That is because money =power in so many peoples minds, and in our current society it is the ONLY important thing to so many.  You cannot put a price tag on so many things that are just as or more important. You can't take your money to the grave.  A happy marriage is priceless.  Since it would seem only "money talks" and all else walks in our society, many use money to do their "talking".  The "money trap" thinking is very easy for many to slip into, as society seems to condone it.    Some use money to give them the power/importance/esteem  they think they deserve, others use it  to weaken/equalize  that power.  Many, nowdays, are so busy trying to just get enough to survive, they have little patience with others "more fortunate".   A broken heart  or ruined marriage/home is costly in ways few think about, till they are in the divorice court.  This particular couple has lots of money, or did at one time to fight about.  

Everyone here is speculating and commenting on people none of us know personally. We are seeing this couple "at their worst" on TV. I think some "charity" of thought and judgements would be in order as none of us would  want to be judged solely on "who we are" when our finances or marriage was in crisis.  

I see only one side of this problem.... that is where they are NOW.  To me both have negatively contributed to "where they are now".  I feel both share guilt/ responsibility  in perpetuating the problem/solution.  

 It would seem many viewers did not "get" this is not only about money, and I find it disturbing that so many people "zipped" over Micheals behavior, including the drug problem, to focus ONLY on Bridgettes "acting out" behavior with the shopping.  Shopping is when SHE is in control or where she "escapes" to to lose her unhappiness. Spending money is playing the game by Micheals rules. Or so she thinks.  Thats my take.        I read that she feels so "out of control" everywhere else, and yet  now she  has lost control of the shopping addicition/revenge/talking to Micheal substitute  too.  He is so into "hisself" that he couldn't hear her if she made the national news, (or the Dr. Phil show), and I maintain she wouldn't be working so hard for "his attention" if she didn't care for him at all. She would have divoriced long ago and took her half and lived happily ever after.   

I also find it sad that any marriage busting behavior can be committed/overlooked  as long as the money keeps coming in.  I certainly feel our society has grown worse as worship of the dollar becomes the norm.   I think that struck a nerve in my "defense" of Bridgette, she is after all only SPENDING money on a multitude of stuff she doesn't need,  ( well .........and cheating-big mistake) while her husband admits to a drug problem, (very serious stuff) a fidelity problem, (mostly a love affair with self as I can see) and admits  problems with being a good spouse and father.( a good contributor to ALL the other problems).  Aren't any of those things enough to "ring the fire bells" with some people? What is that saying about our society?  

 I wanted to put it out there if you all really think  ALL the focus should be on Bridgettes "shopping" problem, while little to any focus is being put on Micheals drug and work addictions?  Isn't this just a "made in heaven" way for him to play the victim? I think this is called PROJECTION of guilt, and of course Bridgette has some, but I don't think her problem is the major problem here.  

 It is just too easy and too "textbook" to  say, well his wife spent his money (that he just kept making, and took no control or gave any real attention to working with her to  correct this problem) so the poor guy just HAD to do DRUGS, CHEAT, and go on a poor me toot.  

This is so classical of drug and substance abusers, ANY excuse to do it, in fact they CREATE excuses or situations that JUSTIFY (in their minds) their doing what they love to do best, SELF INDULGE and of course using the substance of their choice.  They are master manipulators, liars, and have no "memory" of their abuses while under the influence.  Many, many many do things that are conflict oriented just so they CAN get out and get to their drug of choice. Living with such has to be hell or earth. That is why Dr. Phil says this stuff is a tie breaker. You simply cannot "function" normally with someone who had a drug or alcohol problem.  

I would think life with an egotistical drug addict could be pretty abusive. I wouldn't want to be treated for anything by a doctor with a drug addiction. I wouldn't be so quick to believe he has "solved" his little problem with drug abuse, as substance abusers are well known to use denial or other "excuses" when confronted.  

  I have seen drugs and alcohol ruin many marriages, change forever childrens futures,  and totally destroy lives and put more than one person in the hospital.  I guess I find it hard to believe Micheal is getting any sympathy,  and is actually being defended as if  "he is just a normal hardworking guy" .  

I don't see the rationale in  the total condemning  of Bridgette for her reactive coping..........(as I am pretty  sure that it will prove to be) and totally overlooking  his abuses and drug addiction. If you combine drug addiction with overworking you have a really dangerous "cocktail" for disaster. Not to mention potential abuse of ANYONE who would try and stop him or keep him from his "medicine".   

I agree with the poster who said, "Doctor, heal they self".  He has a really SERIOUS problem yet everyone is focusing on Bridgette's problem, when being on the receiving end of a substance abusers wrath is clearly no place anyone want to be. Just because HE says he is "done with that", don't make it so.  

   What am I afraid of ?  

Extremely close-minded , shallow, superficial, judgemental people who are easily led by what things may appear to be rather that what they  might really be.  People who can only see one side of an issue.  People who would rather stay in the dark than to take the effort to turn on a light.  People who hide behind their titles and income to perpetuate their selfish abuses on others. Drugged up doctors scare me way more than shoppers (except maybe at Christmas time!).  

Close minded people that  would rather see the emperior's clothes than to risk not running with the group. People that cruise message boards, for the sole purpose of  manifesting their aggression  in a personal attack rather than to just debate the pros and cons of an issue.   People that assume debating an issue equals with some deep seated psychological problem within the debaters.  

People too afraid to agree to disagree in a respectful, adult manner.  People who use aggression and insults rather than  their intellect to win an arguement.    People who think it is  all about winning, not playing the game.  People with no compassion or understanding.  People who think only money talks and all else can take a walk.  Men and women never really respecting each other and getting along for the sake of generations of children.  

 You are in a parent child relationship but he WANTS to be the child, and is jealous of you and your maturity or stability or common sense. He equals the field by treating YOU like the child. They use abuse, language, intimidation, pouting, refusal to "grow up" mentally or in actions or the finances or the children  to manipulate and retain control so they can BE the child.   

 Without a doubt, the problem is a failure, due to abuse or verbal abuse or his being spoiled  in his family of origin, and now he is replaying the tape and doing it to YOU.  You are more than likely dealing with a case of HIS arrested development, and frankly there is NOTHING you can do because consciously or subconsiously (sp) he WANTS it this way INCLUDING your verbal "parential tone" as you "talk" to him about his lack of motivation (read that maturity, help etc. ) he is acting out his past and using you as a PLAYER in his drama (not as the person you really  are) to do that.  

You are being led into this role (he needs you to play for HIM) by his acts of immaturity. His has (due to his past) the lines blurred between what is a parent and what or who "gets" to be the child. It is a sickness YOU had nothing to do with (other than to be led into your role) that YOU cannot solve for HIM. He was more than likely ALREADY damaged. He does this because it works. He WANTS to be taken care of and self indulged, but also wants to "control" you so he can BE the child, and then frankly he resents it. He is in conflict with his identity. Man or child? You cannot solve this but you can keep from being manipulated into being a player, and protect your own sanity. 

You know how a sick child can "milk" your care? That is exactly what he is hoping to arrive at. He wants to be (and is the sick demanding child). He is using you to replace mother, but at the same time trying to play "parent" to you. STOP THE GAME NOW, don't allow him to sit the rules. Ask yourself what would you do if one of your children was "milking the sick game" and running your legs off and bossing you and staying sick for the "sympathy and care" when you knew they were NOT that sick? (ps he is mentaly sick and doing it  because it WORKS) 

I realize they have had too much "control" and are milking it, and not trying to get well, and let it be known (in words and act)  that THEY have the responsibility to be honest and move on into recovery and back to school. (of course when I can tell they are really well,  but just milking the sick to self indulge and avoid their responsibilities) .  

He is "whinying" for more self indulgent care, to MILK you because HE LIKES being the child. He does have the power to challenge your authority because he is what? A CHILD in an adult body. He is man/child and he needs to be motivated to be one or the other. Not with WORDS but by your "self protecting" not playing the game ACTS to circumvent the manipulation YOU to serve his comfort level. 

Get firm, refuse to be manipulated into being the CHILD or the mommy. Stop whatever it is you are doing to reach "understanding" verbally. What ever it is it won't work. Just stop playing the roles he wants you to or leave him to "do for himself". You have to protect your right to be an adult and to have dignity and respect. He WON'T EVER help you do this, as you have more than likely figured out.  

Being the hero and staying in the situation usually doesn't work, they just whine MORE. Because they are very good at switching from the whiny child into the punishing adult. It is a split personality thing in a sense, but all designed to manipulate YOU. It works because they have the adult power to successfully manipulate you, but you CAN manipulate it back to more reasonable power equality ONLY if you don't "play it their way". Sometimes "leaving the sick room or taking away the bell they ring to get you to come running" ie leaving the marriage is the only way.  

Suggest counseling (usually ineffective as it is only words everywhere but no action) or learn to ignore him ENTIRELY.  When NO one is doing for him he will be motivated to "get well".  

Do not seek understanding, he LIKES it this way for his own "sick" reasons. You cannot cure him or the situation it will take a professional, and even then they "hold their breath" and refuse to cooperate. He doesn't want to get well. As long as you "cater" to it in ANY way, HE is winning.  

  ditto to this  I agree.  

Your vindictive, childish attitude is more than likely why you were dumped  and not chosen. Learn from it and learn some compassion. No one knowingly volunteers for abuse or deserves this treatment. Learn what LOVE is. It is action not words.  

Quote From: wayne101

My wife of almost five years says she wants a divorce. She would rather say that than to look at any reponsibility she might have in our ( my problems.) She says that i am self absorbed, contained and happy to live that way. I don't like gossip and small talk, she does. She talks about her girlfriends and their husbands or boyfriends mostly negative stuff. Yet when I meet these people i'm supposed to forget what she has said and treat the situation open mindedly. That hasn't worked well for me. Thus I don't like meeting most of her friends. I am also sure that she has shared all my short comings with them. Some of my short comings: I am caught talking to myself and thinking out loud, I don't mind spending lots of time alone, when i talk i would rather talk about positive things that we can do to better our lives and relationship. Because that seems to get sabtaged by gossip or negativity (sometimes just a negative tone of voice) I find myself at a loss of words. The problem - SHE REALLY LIKES TO TALK AND DOES NOT LIKE BEING ALONE. She has said that my lack of participation causes her to feel disconected and rejected. I am sorry but sorry is not going to cut it. I NEED TO LEARN TO TALK TO MY WIFE 

  response: I think , Maybe she is talking about them to get a message to you how she does or doesn't want to be treated by YOU. Maybe she is looking for something in common with you and or just needs to talk. Maybe she is so wrapped up in what THEY are doing, because you and her don't do anything and don't TALK about anything (but you or YOUR interests? ) 

Bet you ignore her, and if you don't like her friends  (or being with these folks bothers YOU) become a  best friend to your wife.  Be HER new best friend.  She has nowwhere else to go to talk, or you FORCE her to go there by ignoring her, maybe?.   

  Don't just manipulate her away from the subjects you don't like. She will see it for what it is CONTROL. Good friends don't get that way by ignoring each other or each others interest.  Don't put her down for "gossip" or tell her how she is WRONG to do this.............work to actively replace it by filling her need to talk and not just about you or your activities as a "single guy" that you do without her. You guys like certain things, so do women, try to find something in common to SHARE and enjoy ...........seek to  meet her halfway on this at least. Listen.. try and be interested. Open the communication lines bud.                                                                                                                                                                                         Who do you feel most loyal to strangers or your wife? Share her observations or let her have them, don't put her down for this need to talk, ALL women have it You guys have it you just want  the talk all about YOU or you get bored?. Marriage is about sharing and giving, not just taking.                                    She probably isn't  as nuts as your are about your sports, your job, or YOUR friends or liking  it much to be competing with what YOU want to do alone or without HER or your all about me and what I think attitudes. Bet when you change the subject it is to talk about YOU, or what YOU want to talk about. That comes across as manipulative, and put downish. Acknowledge her and what she is interested in (even if you somewhat disapprove of the concept of gossip) A shared "secret" about others is one of the "fun" aspects of being married or having it UNITES you and her. You need to work on arriving at  you two being best friends able to talk about anything.  She is trying to pull you into her world any way she can and you are clearly REFUSING to go there. Fix this now, or divorice is on the horizon for sure. If she likes to talk about what other people are doing LISTEN, don't act bored or put her down for it. Be loyal to your wife and who or what she is or likes or work WITH her to change this, by sharing something you two CAN talk about.  

 I am just "musing" but here goes. I am an avid reader of history related books. I am currently reading one titled, DIARIES OF WOMEN ON THE WESTWARD JOURNEY".  This is mostly diary entires of womens lot in life during the westward immagration ie the Oregon Trail and during the gold rush.   

One point that really stuck with me (besides the utter slavery and saddness and terrible lot in life the women had, especially no "choice" in the matter whether to go or not go) is this, these men uprooted their families (many of these women were pregnant with small children, or became pregnant on the journey and their small children died) all in the pursuit of gold or "free land".  

The men cared not if this journey literally killed the wives or children, all in the pursuit of gold, or material goods. The women that survived the journey (even if their children did not) often (in disgust at the lack of success these men had in actually finding gold) resorted to "womens work" like doing laundry cooking, running hotels (which were no more than food and a dry piece of ground to sleep on) and other such things (yes some resorted to prostitution, when their "dreamer" husbands got themselves killed) to survive. Many of these women made hundred of times more money doing this meaninless "womans work" than did the gold seeking men. Quite a few women ended up rich (monetarily anyway) from the small tasks like washing and cooking, and became VERY successfull business women, while the gold seeking husbands went broke, died, left them or gave up and went back east.  

The women did this while tending seven or more children, caring for sick husbands, pregnant, nursing AND raising MORE children.  

Some couples did stay alive and together. Those were the couples that pooled their resources, used their noodles and those that were open to changing and adapting to whatever their circumstances were at the time. Their teamwork, and adaptability became their best tools for survival.  

Women had no rights, were thought of as property, and "second class to men".  All men have to eat however, and some wanted to be civilized by sometimes having clean clothes.  They were willing to pay these women for these necessicities and comforts.  

I know there are a multitude of lessons here, as there always are, in our history as men and women on this planet. Seems to me we are going backward, in the evolution of men and women.  

These people were too busy trying to survive, to worry about who did what, or who owned what.  

Times being what they are financially, seems we could all learn from history.  

 Same old story. Lots of talking no doing. Married 28 years and fed up with husbands mind games and his "lets be roommates, white line down the middle of the marriage, workalcoholic past, retired  leave me alone unless I need YOU............misery present attitudes.  

There  is some  hidden/ sometime heavy/ binge type drinking on his part. Went  to counseling told he was "acting out". Don't use that counselor anymore. In fact all counselors been of NO use whatsever, no one can explain or help us or me when you are dealing with an "I want my cake and eat it too" attitude from a spouse". 

Husband Kept hidden from me his growing drinking problem and lies  for years due to seperations on account of his work. I have tried everything to make it work or to be MUTUALLY SATISFYING.  

He lies and denies, but most of all to himself. My anger (at the revelation of just WHO is really has been all these years) makes me physically ill.  That I ever believed a word he said makes me angry at him and myself. I kept on keeping on WAY too long trying to understand what the heck did he want out of the marriage. I now know, a mommy.  

Jeckle Hyde, I wasn't stupid but thought it was just he works, I stay home. We were both doing our part.  Some times really good together, most really bad for me and the four girls living with no INVOLVED father/mate.  

Point. I have had it, he goes to sleep when trying to talk about a "legal seperation" and how that will work. His idea we talk. I am talked to death (FINALLY) and just want out. I intend to consult and hire (hopefully on contingency) an attorney (our neighbor). Will be messy due to husbands personality (control freak with need to punish me for his doings).  

What do I need to take to first attorney's visit. How can I get him to leave so the rest of us don't have to pay (grown daughter, teen, and ten year old) for his inability to "get along and get real" regarding the REAL status of his "other life" and bull and how he has messed up all our lives? 

I realize I really haven't any idea how to help you as I too am without a plan. No one plans to get drug through the cleaners  financially while already emotionally being ripped apart and pay 3-4 thousand dollars to an attorney  for it.   

If you could have stayed under the same roof  who would need a divorice?   Be prepared for EVERYONE to be MALE BIASED. Apparently WHAT a man does, did do, including illegal activities, just isn't "relevant".  All things being EQUAL....................the MOTHER should get the house money, for the kids, and herself  and if she gave up her work for his career, as in my case,  alimony and then some if the rat is abusive and on drugs.(abusive yes, in my case,  on drugs no) Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.  Good or bad in divorice we are all equals!!!!!!!!!!! 

I have done some investigative work with attorneys in the past and  have a rough idea of what I am in for .................lots of  total bull of being told to negioate with the man I cannot negoiate with or we could stay married. I asked/ told him what I wanted or didn't 100 percent agree with or  his approach to our lives or our kids and he made ME public enemy number one and was out to eliminate me. Loads of fun.  

 I am not making much of a plan, cause it ain't over till the fat lady sings, meaning even with the best of planning it all comes down to who hired the best attorney in lots of cases. My sister got ripped professionally.  Her ex  had hired to best known meanest lawyer in town with money he ratholed for several years while pleading he didn't have any. Her ex now lives in an unheated shack (literally a shack/backyard shed) with no running water or toilet on the land the court told them to sell. Her daughter is required to visit him there, can you believe it???????  She had to get a whole new home and wrangle all the financial stuff. She can't afford to take him BACK to court to get him off OR to sell.  

He wasn't out to divide assests or the kids but about ruining her for having put up with him for ten years. He just about did, but she had a good job and that is ALL that saved her. He kids were pretty much grown also. That helped lots. She and her kids SS checks from their  first   Dad's death were paying the bills in the marriage. He was a total wash, but he made her life heck.  

 About the only plan you CAN have is the money for a divorice (attorney fee).  I am not capable of the totally nasty games, even those in my own good like running to close out cards etc or wracking em up, or taking all the money out of the account so all the checks would bounce. He is such a liar and so tightfistedly controlling everything financial  that I can't seem to save this money AND keep the home going and HE knows it. Being married before  we were is why he  MUST control the money. It is all he offers to keep me here!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 The only thing I could do with any certainity right now to get away from his bull, is to leave everything behind including the kids, THEN file as a derelict. What would my chances in court be then?He won't leave, hardly leaves  overnight after being "gone emotionally and physically" most of the marriage and I can't. He is in a full blown midlife, in attitude and even when kind he has to "tell me what to do". Now that he is home all day everyday and he wrecked his car and won't fix his other one he has hunkered down and is taking over my whole house (and he hasn't go a clue about this cushy job called mothering).  

I hate to totally wreck the financial status we have worked so hard to have (retired). I have one advantage in that I have earned my half of the retirement according to law, irregardless of what he thinks.  I just need to know what papers I have to find and if the attorney will do a contingency case (make hubby pay or withdrawl from the retirement account).  I don't think I can withdrawl from it under the law as it is HIS retirement account, for paper signing withdrawls etc. though legally half mine. 

I should have never given up my day job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  PS they NEVER listen until we make em by divorice and then they get revenge on us. Sorry for the bitter 

I hate to be the one to break the bad news, but in my opinion, if they don't listen early on in the marriage............they will think it is just talk to tune out..........until they get the ultimate wake up call DIVORICE.                  

. I don't even want to hear myself repeat the same stuff anymore!!!!!!!!!! I remained loyal, hopeful, and optimistic that someday he would "hear me", see me, remember me, think of me, really CARE about who I am and what I want or need.  I came to resent asking for this. I even gave him a few wake up calls................Then I screamed, I cried and I too was "so alone" and even though we made it (an endurance test?) for 28 years and to retirement he still doesn't hear me, he just sleeps through it.  I should have gotten out, and tried to find a man with hearing ears. I realize that now.