Messages By: wildwood

 I was 23 and my husband ten years older than me when I got married "ages" ago. All the men my own age were just tooooooo immature........Go figure? Do the EVER mature? 

 Most of the time(lon these issues anyway)  I wouldn't do it again, after the first two to five years, I went from his little plaything....(I thought we were in love as two grown adults) ....to the little thing he looked down on and that he felt entitled (by his man stuff, ego and age) to lord over. (this is his mind thing going not mine). 

 As our children got into the teens, he gave me the same size box of chocolates as them, that was when I knew he would never change. Too "old fashioned" like in the 1800's, each year together he regressed me  in my age (his mind thing again) and elevated himself to the  "patriarch"  in an effort (I say that because even now the kids try and hold their own grown or growing up status against his "I know what is best for YOU" stuff to get  in the dominate position of us all. ) His insecurities? 

I guess I WAS  and always will be a child in his mind.  Because he was a workalcoholic (didn't know THAT one back then either) we could afford for me not to work, so fast forward 28 years and guess what I now have no value and  have made no REAL contribution according to him. He has gotten so full of his own messages that  he "regressed" my role there too.  Most men take on that attitude anyway, to "protect" their fragile egos...and to one up.......funny they don't protect us like we would like. 

 I see in your post that you have already put your self in the "woman" down position and accepted it. by saying, " Granted I do not have the life experience he does....(  My guess is according to him you never will on ANY subject..including your shared money, he will see as his to make decisions about, being more knowledgable and all.........." and he has this need to tell me what to do or how to do things......( he already sees himself as mature to your immature, like a daddy.............." and "he can't understand why I do something different than he might"" (Meaning he won't accept your rights or let you be you? Unless of course when HE tells you you can be you, this is what he married didn't he?) 

These are all things that will continue to do more than just slightly annoy you as the years progress. We have been having THIS war, (about my equality and rights to be treated fairly) in my home for many years to NO avail.  (don't ask me why I stay, I guess cause most of the time I just "do it anyway", or at least try and meet halfway. NOPE he is all the way HIS WAY and is really a pain if it isn't...........LET HIM PAIN I SAY.  

I STILL get the "I have spoken and that is final" implied treatment from my "sug daddy". .  (this makes me heck bent to say up yours and do my own thing anyway)  As you can see these attitudes clashing constantly is not really good for a mutually satisfying marriage.The man really never did come around to the "we are equals thing" after 28 years of marriage. It got old for me after the first five. The attitude did anyway.  Remind him what Dr. Phil says went you treat your spouse like a child? THEY REBEL and run away like children do when they grow up. 

You better start right now, clarifying that you EXPECT to be equals, and that age is NOT a measure of intelligence or he better keep his walking...........then running shoes handy if he continues to do otherwise.  I shouldn't have given up my day job, I way too late realized as MONEY can be often the only "equalizer" when dealing with a controlling, I know best for you man irregardless of his AGE. 

As for geography I am the southerner and he is the yankee. Don't think that matters.  If I had a time machine to go back to the VERY beginning of my own marriage knowing then what I know now..(well I did but didn't really know what to do about it or thought it was "cute" but harmless........WHO KNOWS.  

 If I were you I I would be spending MORE time on dealing with these issues (deal breaker attitudes he has) than "how to please him right now.   Let him know YOU expect to be pleased and to can the "ain't the little lady cute" stuff NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

  I actually went to the message boards to read about the "money bully" man whose wife had low self esteem because he was treating her like a child and called THEIR money HIS money.  This hoarding  topic caught my eye, because I am currently "moving stuff around" after getting my daughter a second hand  desk, (old stuff had to be rearranged to make room for it).  I can walk through my spacious 1700 sq foot house, but the closets are stuffed, more on that later. 

   I also read the post from a man here on this topic and all the things he "wished" he could do if his house wasn't so cluttered (he blamed his wife, naturally HE had nothing to do with it) .   

     I also saw that he worked two jobs but didn't want to anymore as his wife would just buy more stuff.  (funny he didn't see the irony in that) 

  I tried to post a reply to his message but................couldn't figure out how.  I then realized between the three things I hit on why myself and probably many other women shop too much and have too much stuff. I wasn't always this way, in fact I am really a nature freak that likes to spend all her time outside.  I like things "from scratch and simple".  I know it sounds like "coping out" but I would like to offer a theory on how this "syndrome" gets started in some of us.  

  To begin I remember my father and my grandparents grew up in a time when "nothing was wasted" and everything could be used.   My dad had very selfish and childish (literally) parents and so  he left them (actually they neglected HIM) and went to live with a pitifully poor alcoholic uncle. They, my dad and his uncle, lived a a cabin the size of the smallest backyard shed you can buy.  

   Probably from having NOTHING, my Dad began to gather old, but fixable things, as a kid just to have anything........he carried that on for years. No hoarding, or clutter, but us kids got lots of things we wouldn't have had if Dad didn't bring home old stuff to fix up for us and he could fix and did anything..   

  I got some of mine (buying "fixable" stuff from garage sales)  from him and he got his out of total necessity.  Later my Dad also got his uncles alcoholism tendencies.  I remember leaving home at about 16, due to the fighting him and Mom did, over his (my Dad's drinking). When I left home  I had nothing but my car and what clothes I had thrown in the back.  Later he, my Dad, did bring some of my furniture including a bed he had made for me.   

   I lived on my own from then moving from friend to friend with nearly nothing and finally got my own place and had zip for stuff and zip for money. My parents had so many problems, I didn't see much of them and only can remember once or twice where the came to see me, and no "first apartment" spoiling of gifts of stuff for me.  I really don't know how I managed but I did.  

   My husband and I got married, after a guy in the apt I was living in at the time killed his wife,(he was an abusive sh...t and finally hit her one too many.  I was called to "see how sick she was, when in fact she was DEAD).  Not a friend really just a neighbor I spoke to occassionally.  Our first date was at the trial (husband was a cop and I worked at the pd at the time) 

   My husband was married before and apparently she took him for everything.  Well, she took his compassion too I later found out as he "resented" my having any financial freedom, say or control of even the money I needed for us (including when I spent my OWN salary on flowers, food and clothes for myself) , and later for our children. The fighting was constant. No matter what I did  my "ways" were never good enough for my husband. There was no hoarding to begin with, I just wanted him to see how "thrifty" I was hoping to please him and help him stop being so ANGRY all the time and being driven to WORK all the time, and be "too busy for me or our children" all the time.    

     Years later I  came to realize it wasn't ME he was angry with at all.  I was just handy to "vent" his resentment at ALL women on (mother and ex wife issues). Still, I began to utilize the "make something from nothing rule" hoping to PROVE, what a good and thrifty wife I was. I also hoped that if I PLEASED him he would appreciate me more and want to spend more time with me and later our own children.  I kept begging him not to work so much, and thought that if I was "thrifty" enough he wouldn't think there was a need to.   

   The more "thrifty and creative" I was, the more I noticed he GAVE AWAY what extra money we had to anyone who would ask , or when he needed to absolve HIS guilt..........or that he wanted to impress with how "rich" he was (he grew up really poor, much worse than me cause before my Dad drank his troubles away........we were actually pretty well to do middle class with a home business and several rental properties). Of course when Dad  drank,,,,,,,,,,,,,it was all Mom's fault for "spending too much".... when actually she was really creative and thrifty too.. Later when my workalcoholic, no compassion or empathy husband drank it was ........you guessed it cause I spent too much..........go figure how men always blame women for what they won't admit THEY are doing.............. working and drinking and leaving their families fatherless and husbandless..... too much.  They also seem to like to impress others with their "success" and "riches"  while abusing their wives with tight fistedness, NEGLECT and CONTROL and BAD HABITS.   I think this is called PROJECTION. (lest not forget all those well dressed, well groomed, babyless babes they leer at while offending their "thrifty" wives") 

  Anyway, all those hours I was left home alone with babies to raise, I was also getting tired of being so thrifty, and seeing how "he" lived and what "his" priorities were, mostly himself.  One day I said BULL, " He says he is working for US, meaning our family, but he resented spending a dime on US, with US or for US. "   I started using his, I mean OUR money for what he SAID he was earning it for US.   

  Then the fun really began, the heat turned up and the CONTROL everywhere, to include using the kids against me really started. Mind you I was still buying EVERYTHING I could second hand, and yes saving all the outgrown clothes and toys for the "next" kid in line.  I also started a little game called "get ready for the divorice" .  

  The game goes like this, buy what you "think" you will need then, NOW, because he most likely will leave you with NOTHING, just to prove how wrong you were to leave his lying, penny pinching, don't appreciate you self. I added................. if I can only wait till the "retirement", which is when he promised he would have "time" for us...........then I can get my Legal share that he refused to give me for US.  

 I also started the two can play the "ignore it" game. Meaning everytime I asked for his time or attention for US, he either said he didn't have the time or the money or ignored me completely. His favorite game was to pretend I NEVER said anything and he "forgot" everyting I had asked for money for.. I just took it anyway...... and FORGOT how mad it made him for me to have any control...for what?  Stuff  like groceries, clothes, doctors, furniture, yard tools ya know all the stuff to raise kids and run a house. A house he also shared, but used more like a hotel with girly priveleges without the hassle........ie I guess he expected free whoopee too. Birth control, and all that stuff "costs too much".  He became a REAL JERK where the need for ANY money was concerned, unless of course he needed to "guilt gift me"........He always had money for that....... 

   I know what you are thinking, but he was so SLICK,   and I so wanted it to "work" that it took me years to figure out this wasn't love..........it was abuse and why I couldn't see it, not only was I "in love" I was too trapped and busy with children to do much about it and first wife had first claim to any money I could get.. for years...yeh like a dope I had given up my paying job long ago.  

  Anyway, the result of prepare for the future, be thrifty and creative, get fixable junk, and why can't I have any of OUR money for US, and the need to "impress' this cold fish with my "good wife skills" has resulted in 28 years later a house (not near like those described here) pretty full of stuff that can be recycled for the next child, sold for money, or passed on to the now teenagers so that they won't have "nothing". like I did.  

    During the last six years I moved near a wonderful salvage, thrift store, and literally furnished and clothed, my home and kids, have gotten many decorative things I wouldn't have paid retail for, quite a few valuable antique things, and virtually ever thing we own comes from there. I have "saved" my husband a fortune (seriously) to include a refrigrator that is still going strong five years later for 100.00. 

    This is thrift..............this has been a "good wife". Unfortunately, my husband will never see it and calls it all JUNK I NEED TO GET RID OF.   I told him I will, as soon as he is willing to part with the money to buy new.  I am still waiting, and yes still planning on being "set" with stuff after the divorice.  

   On the serious side,  I forgot to add that I am one of those people who, trying NOT to anger my husband and to "reduce" the amount of times I have to ask, make that beg, whine and nag to get household money.........shops  "too much" in this way, at Walmart if I happen to be there during the seasonal change of stock and can get socks for 25 cents a pair or packages of  six undies (four girls) for a dollar I will buy most if not all I can afford. Once I spent fifty dollars on socks, but for a family of six everyone had all the socks they could use (and needed) in both winter and summer socks. Two of my teens could wear the pkgs of undies and so could my ten year old. (they were girls undies but two of the teens are tiny size 4 )and could also wear the next up size that the ten year old was growing into so I bought tens and twelves all I could afford.  

      To some people this is "weird" I guess as they buy as "they need it and pay FULL price" To me it is being thrifty and saving money. Most of the time if I do buy retail it is at end of the season sales were tops that were 17.00 (ridicoulously priced to begin with) are now 1.50, NEW!  I also once bought fifty dollars worth of olive oil (flavored and extra virgin) at about 1. 50 on average per bottle.  Those of you that cook with olive oil will see the bargain in this. It took us about a year to use it all and the savings was tremendous. This is a "healthy" kind of hoarding to me.   Our parents and grandparents also hoarded and canned fruits and vegetables when in season. No one thought it was "weird".   I think some "hoarding" is just being smart.   Makes more sense that just letting money go to waste paying the inflated prices you will when you buy in season. To each his own.  

      Many times MEN, who never go into a store (to maybe buy ONE item for themselves asap) , really have NO idea what stuff costs, but see themselves "fit" to pass judgement on their wives "spending habits".  These same men, hoard their money like KING MIDAS for the power it gives them...........and see NOTHING wrong with that .......again go figure.  

   First of all I am now 52 years old, old enough to have difficulty finding a decent /livable wage/paying job at my age and if so lucky keeping up with it physically,  I certainally cannot hope to get to the point of making enough money to "start over from scratch" and even hope to support myself and the two youngest, second I have over the years been self employed , and believe me it is NOT enough to live on exclusively. (I was making quite a bit of "egg" money through selling many hand made/second hand items and occassionally a full time job).  Third, I planned for my future financially by services rendered through the years as part of the  "man the fort, stay at home with the kids" partnership of marriage  that ENTITLES me and our children to benefit from the proceeds of my supporting HIS earning OUR money.  

   I really do NOT understand the attitude of many that "just leaving" fixes much of anything.  I will still have contact because of the children and it is my desire that it be on "good terms" if at all possible.  It is often "out of the pan" and into the fire, and pride going before a fall that gets "single moms" in deep do do.   I cannot afford to think only of myself, at this late date. I have a responsibility to see that these children (he HAS a responsibility for their being here too! With or without the purchase and use of birthcontrol) are not "caught in the middle" and punished further by their fathers "he is the boss of the money"  and I am second class with no contribution of any value  attitudes.  They feel the "guilt" through his beratement of me. I have been unable to get him to understand this effect at all. So be it.     

  I will admit that what he sees as being "irresponsible" with money, is his man stuff and his  total lack of understanding just what it costs to feed a family formerly of six people or that girls by nature of the sex have costly needs, especially monthly ones and others far beyond what a male child might "get by on". I guess this is what is know as irreconcilable differences? 

    Clearly, he has difficulty, to say the least in not "calling me on the carpet" in front of the kids.  I am very concerned how this "attitude" affects the youngest. Lets just say I have "learned through my mistakes" with the others that I really DON"T want to subject her to anymore of this no matter who is right and who is wrong here.  

    I strongly resent and disagree with his need to "BLAME" someone other than himself for his responsibilities to his family financially and emotionally.  I am preparing for what I see, NOW, as the inevitable as his attitudes have gotten much worse in the last ten years AFTER our last child was born. No one can prepare for a husbands "mid life" crisis exaggeration of what previously might be deemed a somewhat  managable  if totally unwelcome problem. I just don't WANT to deal with "attitudes" anymore. That is MY choice. Birth control HAS to be paid for and tolerated  and USED to be effective. I have been fixed for the last six  yrs.so that is not a problem, a total LACK of a sex life is.  (So was his "get you fat ass up, so I can get back to work " attitudes during the recovery period".) He would rather focus on what a "good" caretaker he was, NOT.  

    He  more and more often says many things when stressed  (giving what others need) that are very hurtful and inexcusable.  If you make too much money...........you cannot get it for FREE.  Yes you can abstain, and had that  and the USE of birth control not be done from time to time I would have had many more children. Please do not insult me with your education in that respect. I do know where they come from and why. It is my husband that has a problem with that one and in begrudging the COST of birth-control in the past.  

    I do not resent or regret my children,(but I do resent my so called "resent your own kids" attitudes he has invented   as being the problem when what I resent is HIS attitudes and misplaced priorities, and  that being painted as "the problem" by my husbands misguided reasoning)  but I have ALWAYS resented my husbands "me first"  attitudes that have grown intolerable over the years.  

    He has been a good provider, he just won't let go  of it without resentment and fuss and blame to ME for the needs of US. He has also gotten VERY inconsistant in how much, what and in what way I can spend "his money", it changes daily. It was the asking for cash (self protection) rather than checks or credit cards (a set up to hang me with all the bills?) and the inconsistancy and total lack of "stick to it" that has pushed this to something I just DON't want to live with anymore.  

    He has a problem accepting MENTAL responsibility, and like a lot of men harbors deep resentment when he CANNOT put himself FIRST. In these latter years, the mid life years, this has gotten much worse and due to "my standing up" for my right as his wife to have some money and some "say" without the blame game.......there is constant FIGHTING.  

    Lastly I can "spend" I just have to be willing to "give the pound of flesh" before and after. It is the "guilt trips" and perhaps his total "money issues" of control, and resentment, that have become unbearable. He and men like him are very common, and many women deal with this "attitude".   I just don't WANT to anymore. As he approached mid life, and his retirement he has gotten MUCH worse.  He "creates" problems, acts like a teenager and then blames someone else for them.  I get to be the "scape goat" for his internal issues and the cleanup crew for the ensuing messes.  I don't want to anymore, and frankly I don't HAVE to as my kids are no longer babies and I have EARNED my half of his retirement checks.  

    I do resent, while seeing your point the "moocher" aspects you apparently chose to see. This is NOT about mooching..........I know the work I have done for this family, on the home front. I know the state says it has/had VALUE, it is my husband that doesn't see it that way. He will be the one needing to be "looking for a job" after  this  "value of a partnership" lesson is "taught "by the state that indeed I do qualify for half and then some.   

    I may need to work to have insurance coverage. One way I will need less, is the hoarding of "everyday items" and clothing, as they are often the real costs to single moms. I do not worry about making rent or buying groceries............everything else has been saved or stashed.  Getting a job, unless it proves I need it, will just do me out of what I have already EARNED through the marriage. I will not need to "do without" or live like a pauper. That was my "financial plan" when it was clear he was getting worse NOT better in his attitudes.  

     Second, it was the standing up for myself (and my children)  and NOT backing down for ANY reason that preceeded the total WAR that resulted in my current bad situation.   Sometimes you must view a situation for some time before the "obvious"  to others aspects really hit home. Some things are "circumstantial" and some things are a permanant part of someone's personality. Some people manipulate so well that it really is hard to spot which is which. That was said in my post.  

    I also know I am by far not the only woman to find herself between the devil and the deep blue sea when it comes to being pridefull enough to "just walk out" vs staying till the time was "right" . Always much easier said than done, especially if the children THE TWO OF YOU HAD, are able to be "used against you".  

  I have gone the "flea market" route in the past  and believe me you cannot support a family on earnings from flea markets, unless you devote FULL time to it  24/7 and frankly the bottom is out of that type market and I am no longer able to lift, tote lug and otherwise physically make that possible.  

   My husband is retired from TWO gov/city jobs and it would actually be to my disadvantage to seek employment if I plan to divorice, except for health insurance. He is going to be the one on the short end of that stick, needing another job, however you cannot count on "sympathy" with the mother anymore as to just what the courts will do.  

   I am not going to go with the "parasitic" view of myself that so many suscribe to women who have devoted their lives (not to mention financial security to the concept of  living off their husbands salary while supporting his earning of it). I do not see myself as a parasite to him for his/our  income be it before of after his retirement. To do so  only adds to the belief that so many have, that a wife has no value or  claim to her husbands money because she did not earn it. I feel I did earn it it ways any servant, laundry service, nurse, grounds keeper,  prostitue, housekeeper, babysitter, cook, yardman, household repair service  or other paid employee does.    Your statements that I "have some pride and earn my own money"  kinda adds to that misconception of "no value" without a paycheck that I only adds fuel to this fire of misconception of a  some peoples idea of partnership in marriage.  

  The whole idea behinds women's lib (I know I was there when it started full force in the sixties) was CHOICE in how one "makes a living or earns their way". Not enforced concepts of no value without a paycheck.  It was the misguided concepts that a woman staying home is of no value (and has no vote)  that started the whole woman's lib thing in the late 1800's. Equal rights, equal choices. Not more devaluing of a woman worth due to  maritial status or sex.  

    I take great pride in MY work and contributions just like anyone working for a "check" does. My girls have learned that valuable lesson from me. To hear their father tell it, he is the only hero in the family. I say there should be two heros in OUR family. Again irreconcilable differences? 

   When I married this man............I knew little about him, other than his words and place of employment.  You cannot really KNOW someone unless you live with them, and for the most part he was gone so much living with him daily for long periods wasn't an issue. Retirement changed all that, and I miss "niceness",  real partnership, sex and companionship. The sex part I obviously had, the companionship rarely.  

    That,  not REALLY knowing him or being given the chance to, I now know wasn't the best thing to do.  He clearly disagreed or like a lot of men, saw me as "bought and paid for" and forgot I was here and doing my end of the work for the family by CHOICE.   

   I also have "guilt" for sometimes I did take advantage of his "nice guy" periods, so I could deal with the "stingly guy" part that followed. I suppose many would call it passive aggression in me, but he taught me well how to manipulate with that. I am NOT proud of this but one does what one must at times. I just no longer want to live "in guilt"  but in pride of who, and what I know I am. It has become very clear to me it is a waste of the years I have left to hope he will know it or show it.  

    However, as many women will tell you other than his "control/greed" he can alternate  that with "doing all the right things"  and extreme generosity (that he totally begrudges later) just enough to make one question ones own perceptions. It happens  in many marriages all the time. He grew up during the depression, and I think we all make "allowances" for our mates baggage.  I had some really hard times when young and that has been held over me. That is until it gets the better of them and they are "out of control" with their behavior.  I can honestly say, the situation what it is we are both out of control with it. We are fighting more than anything else we do. I do not want myself or my girls in this enviorment anymore.  

  The only problem I have with my daughters respecting me, comes from his "blame game" and need to put it all on me as a "spendthrift", not a thrifty spender providing for her family. He is doing this to justify, the bad attitudes and habits he developed and cultivated that really have little to do with me, and more to do with were he is coming from.  

   I have given them a great example of how to stand up for oneself and that making the money, isn't the only contribution of value to a marriage, or life  and by standing firm in the face of adversity for ones RIGHTS by not letting them be taken away without a fight (it is the fighting part that really annoys me however) , through the years and by NOT being controlled by his "attitudes" and by seeing to them getting what they need.  I am exhausted with the "counterbalance" act however.  

   In financial times like these, they have learned many valuable lessons regarding thrift and I am very proud to see the daughter that has left home, shops secondhand, is both thrifty and creative and makes do and makes better. She is totally self employed,  has a beautify magazine view home, many  items which I gave her  from my barn of "hoarded" second hand furniture, or  with items she acquired second hand and she is making 50.00 a half hour. So apparently I did something right in SPITE of my husbands "bad attitudes" and my so called mooching dependance by some.  

  I appreciate your post, am not angry, but  perhaps a tad defensive and will consider your points as somewhat valid if not totally appreciative of the situation.  

   Hey I can totally understand how the shift  work thing makes it next to impossible to keep a clean house! Add two, not just one, man  and the work of that (even helpful men lack a womans touch or  just don't get it or why it is sooooooooo important to US to have clean and pretty) and wellllllllllllllllllllllll.....................   

     There seems to be something innate in men that a clean surface begs, no make that requires/demands  to have  "set something on it".  A clean house begs to be "marked like turf" by running shoes, t shirts, chip bags, school books. car keys or something. Everytime I got a surface CLEAN and clear of clutter, like metal shavings to a magnet my  husband (and sometimes my girls) set something on it and just "junked it up again".  

   Of course, to them,  the house looks "cluttered" due to MY stuff, NOT their inability to "put their own things AWAY", to include empty coke cans, chipbags, school books,  work stuff, mail picked up but NOT put in the desk and shoes etc 

  It is the "lack of control" in having your enviroment the way  that makes you feel good that is "contributing" to the problem.  Shift work and small kids, and teenagers and young adults still at home, my age, minor health problems associated with that and an already too small house with no closet space, and sheer frustration at the never ending repetive task done infinite times a day  only to have is disordered again that drove me outta my house looking for a "nice enviroment" at the local boutique, antique shop, or store where I could look at the "decor, items for sale, room models decorated with stuff FOR SALE and dream" what I would do if I only I COULD that offered a "refuge" of the mind from then endless cycle of "if only".   

   No matter how you train, ask, or face it bitch and gripe no one sees what we see that needs done, or done better (not just shoved to the corners),  or the endlessness of  keeping house (no matter if we work full/part time or not at all out side the home) or picked up and KEPT clean. It truly affects a woman sense of balance if her home is disordered. At least it does me. By disordered, I don't mean to perfection, but at least presentable.  Sometimes a really messy house is a "cry for some help and understanding". For a while my bunch just "stepped over and around it" and missed the cry completely or just blamed ME and my stuff. Hey, they have stuff tooo!!!!!   It matters not if shift work, lazy/busy/or not on the same clock  husbands, or growing children, lack of funds or space , a womans home (and the state it is in) is still a reflection on the woman.  

   It is also like WE are being taken advantage of or insulted when our families do not understand this or "respect" the work we do to TRY and keep it that way in SPITE of all the setbacks, like shift work.  The only CLEAN homes I have every really seen when dropping in unexpectedly are thos where kids are grown, NO one is home in the day or those that have pleanty of storage space or room for STUFF, or those of totally unsentimental people who throw away everything and or lock people out while they clean or from people who are never there or haven't a care. Occassionally you will find someone "together" ALL the time, with a family under threat of expulsion if they do actually occupy the "living quarters". Ok, save the hate mail. I am just trying to say  it is "rare". These houses on this segment are EXTREME examples of how it totally "gets out of hand". 

    Without realizing it we  women (and some men too) can and do start to resent, feel overwhelmed or lesser than when many factors combine to have a home enviroment that is DEPRESSING, and disordered.  

   It isn't about money,  working or not working, or the lack of a can do spirit.  When the "can do, is turned into a can't do it" by forces out of our control or  that don't cooperate with our wishes, needs or whatever to have  presentable home .............our spirits begin to "wither" and we can easily just become a dog chasing our tail...........or give up completely or spend all our time "out" looking for some pretty, peace or order.  With all the "changes" in thinking, we DO still hold women accountable for "the state the home is in".  

    Often we think "buying something" for storage, or  to make pretty or to "make up" for our  inability to get it under control so we feel in balance ..........without totally thinking it through.......winds up just making it WORSE  or is only a quick fix.   

     That would explain the HUGE profit  retailers make by  telling us we NEED this or that thing or product to make it so, don't feel like the lone ranger here. You are not alone ergo the whole industry hoping to capitalize on "our thinking" or our suseptibility to such.  This  issue  of a "life out of balance is one of the things I was trying to convey in my "how it gets started" post, but got sidetracked. If our needs, as women are in any way advertantlt or inadvertantly or circumstantially  not respected it DOES effect us emotionally and we easyily can feel disrespected when our homes reflect a disordered woman.  IT oft times IS PERSONAL to us. 

  For years I dealt with the shift thing and small children. One thing I did until I was unable to do it as well was to work outside in the yard to gain a sense of pretty, and order. Also the yard stayed nicer LONGER, so I had the sense of accomplishment.   

     Also, I stopped trying to keep house, as if "someone" was going to be dropping by............as rarely did anyone I would be too ashamed to let in. Mostly those that did just drop in unexpectedly  were family, so not such a big deal. I learned to have baskets with lids strategically placed so that minor clutter could be hidden pdq.   Now I have an abundance of "quick storage" trunks, baskets and such so that worked for a while.  I also did finally get some "good" ways to organize,  took me many failed attempts and some "realistically altered" expectations to and a room addition to come closer to achieving this, not to mention kids getting older or out!.   

   I also started pursuing my art or something "outside" the home. It doesn't have to be for pay. And  temp relief for the time being can be in your own back yard!   I did develope a problem with acquirring way too much after 28 yrs married and 4 children and a lifetime of shift work interference, my family changed and it was time to "let go" of lots of stuff..  

    I also had to suffer much, as a result of pent up "disorder/displaced  female  syndrome" and still have remissions where I look to the quick  fix or look, shop and buy (impulse) solutions and have to remind myself (almost daily)  those items that DIDN't help the situation  all that much long term.   

   The last time I did a big dispose, discard, and just throw it out (not trash but outgrown, served it purpose, never use it anymore, don't REALLY need it  stuff) was right after Katrinia hit, and some lucky people got lots of good usable things. Unfortunately after a while the outpouring of stuff  (from people just like US?) was so overwhelming that all the local charities REFUSED to take anymore of anything. That stopped me in my tracks and I still have lots to eliminate.  

      I also held onto my dreams of "someday"...........with some bittersweet as that day will also mean I might be alone with a perfectly clean and ordered house...........and no one to "share"  the day to day with.  I also reminded myself this is going to change someday, and do I really want that day to hurry. Yes and no.  

    I am sorry  you got that "staying  at home makes you miserable" as your take on my post. I doesn't make me miserable to stay at home... to take care of the home, and my children, and my husbands other needs so that he can have the support HE needs to earn us a paycheck..... for I feel it is an honorable choice.........and one that my husband and I agreed to in the beginning of our marriage considering his career choices.  It is his misguided mis-treatment  of me, and his worse than ever disrespect for that honorable and in our case necessary choice we both made through the years,  as the problem.   That and  his "money bully"  attitudes of  control and emotional "abuse" guised as financial abuse......and other bad behaviors and attitudes on his part  that ARE the problem.  

   I have worked outside (and inside the home)  and am willing to again, but...........to hold it against me NOW.......without discussion regarding change is immature and disrespectful to me, and the job I did for years. It is HIS attitudes that are the problem. I realize I cannot change his attitudes, but I also have no intention of "jumping through hoops" this late in the game to satisfy his "attitudinal disfunctions" of his midlife crisis or inability to communicate as an adult regarding finances.  

   The nature of his two jobs made it next to impossible for me to seek any employment  early in the marriage and as long as his two careers were to be fulfilled  (as someone had to be with our children, and it is very hard to find affordable and competent care during the hours and weekends they would be needed,  much more so than a nine to five schedule. ) We also thought a PARENT to be the best child care provider.  

    It is not the staying home aspects that make me miserable, but rather the "fine print" my husband apparently has chosen to "sneak in" and his attitudes that MONEY making is all that matters   and in keeping with that ,that he therefore has "total rule and control of the money"  to the degree he has "taken all authority" over the money at this late date.  I doubt I will have very good "emotional welfare" if I am suffering financially to the degree it disrupts my emotional welfare and or my childrens security.  I would like to see how the "fat lady is going to sing" first, and then make decisions regarding the need for financial supplementation of  what I have already earned.  

     I do agree that my emotional welfare (and that of my children) is important. That is the only reason I posted to this thread in the beginning. Severly disrupted emotional welfare can set something like "hoarding" to excess in motion. His attitudes and the outcome of that may indeed start a "reaction" in one of our children that I do not see as  good for their ultimate mental health.   

    Not everyone who "prepares realistically" for the future "stashing a few nuts for the winter" should be seen as a nut themselves. However, fear of security or having  ones security and your world totally and rudely  shaken due to the lack  of or uncertainity of a secure future can precipitate UNHEALTHY hoarding.  Healthy or unhealthy hoarding many times is in fact biochemical or simply a somewhat natural reaction to security threats taken to the extreme. I was attempting to tie in the emotional aspects of how and why this may get a foothold and grow into a real problem, not just  bash the symptoms. 

  Apparently you are not thinking your suggestions through, as a day care center would be extremely emotionally and physically demanding and frankly best left to the younger more agile folks. Do you think they sit on their butts all day?  I would never take my children to such a day care center. There is much physical labor involved in day to day child care, but then you may have never done this on a daily basis 24/7?  

    I also find it interesting that "caring for children" is the first thing you think of for a stay at home mom that may have to or want to  return to the work force, as if there are  no other imaginable  talents within a person whose prime job has been caring for her own children. Many other skills go with being a stay at home, and I have many of those.........not to mention,   past  and present employment skills to include  artistic talents and that is what I am pursuing at current, portriats of children as fairies etc for part time work. I am realistic enough however to realize this, to  include day care work, is  simply NOT ample for  the full time support of three (and those are  just the 2 minor children still at home)  or more persons.  

   What planet have you been on? Day care workers are among the least paid workers out there.  Job security  in the day care industry is not the best, and yes it is very physically demanding. I will admit I may have the "brains for it" due to raising four children, but certainally not the physical staminia. That is is about as realistic as your final suggestion  of illegally getting money rather than legally getting "my/our financial  due" via  my marriage. You must have a very low opinion of women indeed.  

   As for standing on a corner prostituting yourself, rather than enforcing your rights of money legally earned and entitled to  by marriage and services rendered.......... that is a "silly" prideful statement some women may  make in jest,  but again not very well thought out.  

  I personally would rather go to court to get what is mine legally, (if I can get the money for that endeavor) than to illegally "sell myself" to the highest bidder, with who knows what diseases.  Getting arrested, lowering my self esteem to that level and doing such a thing to damage my and my childrens emotional welface make NO sense. I know you know that, or I hope you do.  Maybe you need to "get some pride" if that is your idea of a job. Please I know even you are intelligent enough to see that as "foolish pride"  statement , clearly not common sense.  

  Many would call this a "justification". However, I would like to add that many women who "shop too much" , spend foolishly , hoard, or do other illogical things are often  reacting (without knowing what or why that is ) in what they see as a "safe" manner  to their husbands UNHEALTHY workalcoholism, emotional unavailibity, drinking, or  bully like unrealistic expectations  and or to their  husbands male oriented  double standard thinking controlalcoholism.   

     Men, it seems, have an amazing ability to deny and shut down emotions or  dealing with irresponsibility on THEIR part and deal with this by  projecting blame for their problems (stunted maturity and other brain dead expectations of their spouse and or the WHYS of being a self centered  "control freaks"). Their wives, often react in a PERFECTLY logical (to them anyway) way by this logic, "If hubby is foolishly working when he doesn't need to simply to avoid emotional intimacy and his own offspring, then why not "foolishly spend" the MONEY he claims is being earned " for his family"?. They hope to bully the bully or simply jolt or wake him up to his "problem". This backfires and now THEY have cultivated a problem as a result of using "logic" to solve the problem.  

 Or in the case of  a spouses alcoholism,  they  try to make an illogical problem contain some usable logic for them by reasoning "if HE is going to act so irresponsibly why should I have all the responsibility". The equally opposite "logical approach", can be, "He is acting VERY irresponsible, so I must be SUPER responsible". They take purchasing/hoarding  of  needed items into OVERKILL.  Many wives are provoked and "set up" by inconsistancy (money wise) on the part of their "double standard" thinking husbands  to have HIS problem PROJECTED onto her. She may be "logically" reacting to his ILLOGICAL actions.  

    Dr. Phil has had many shows that point out, acting out, and such often can be seen as a SYMPTOM to a spouses illogical or self centered or control oriented, or male dominated thinking . Such is the case with "burning bed" stories. A woman, "acting logically" to her situation of being beaten  and also under the  daily fear of  he own death death, takes matters into her hand and "kills him first" to save herself BECAUSE she could find "no way out". ILLOGICAL  becomes LOGICAL.   

  You can bully a bully to get him to go away, ignore it, remove yourself, (which is the hardest thing to do if your bully is your spouse) or attempt to cope and "reason" your way out. A dose of their own medicine (giving back JUST what you get) escalates the situation.  

   Many "disorders" are simply coping skills taken to the extreme.  Many times men can be very successful in having the "victim" set up to be the perpetrator.  This is made much easier by the thinking and worship of money, and or that money making is  the GODKING in America and the only endeavor of value. Society ALREADY validates a man, who thinks money making MAKES him a KING. Many men, think this Makes a man a man. (women are guilty more often of the thought that a WOMAN is NOT a woman unless she works, so they have applied men oriented society thinking in America to themselves and I fear women are forgetting what OTHER factors it takes to be a woman on account of this. Their WHOLE worth revolves around the dollar they make.  

   Many "victims" not understanding the WHY or WHAT IS aspects of being on the receiving end of someone elses "disordered" thinking, APPEAR to be the cause of problems  or become disorder in THEIR  own thinking. Most  disordered thinking USUALLY does not occur in a bubble or a vacuum.  

  It is very easy to say "get out"  "throw it out" or "I would rather ______________ than put up with that, however such disordered  people are VERY effective at obtaining for their "victims" prey, spouse etc  isolation, disbelief  from any support system and other financial and emotional controls that in effect seem to "cut off all means of escape" and play on a womans emotional "nurturing" and gender induced "guilt" and SOCIETIES illogical views to support their DENIAL of their own problems. Now, two people have a "problem" one is disordered and the other is using the wrong "coping" skills to deal with the disordered thinking of a spouse (to an outsider) anyway . 

   Men  (glad to say not all, or so I have been told) are very capable of  financial abuse(and working women can be abused financially also so that is not ALWAYS protection against this problem).   Such men capitilize on the womans bond and sense of responsibility towards her spouse, and  her children and therefore learn how to gain and use control of the childrens "loyalities" to continue the  emotional abuse they inflict on their wives/girlfriends while  they themselves remain in complete DENIAL regarding their own dysfuctional isms and thinking. Society inadvertantly condones faulty thinking regarding POWER and who is entitled to it.  

   In short, for the object of "projection"  nothing done to improve the situation helps, and attempts to get "relief" or out can often escalate the situation or "turn up the heat".  They are "trained" by hurt, to not even try. Sometimes the evidence of "emotional or other abuse" is seen in what people spend, how they keep themselves and their house. Anxiety, anger, fear, rage or illogical justification for illogical behavior. Many many counselors seem to not know this, or overlook it  go to work on the one with OBVIOUS symptoms and the original perpatraitor gets off for the second time and those counselors  that do such  often make the situation worse by BLAMING the one evidencing OBVIOUS symptoms.  

   If one is suffering from "heat exhaustion" we don't condem them for their inability to just get out of the heat, they CAN"T because of the heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The ball of string, starts SOMEWHERE. Same can be said of hoarding in many cases.  

  I believe I have been in an emotionally abusive relationship for the last 28 years. I won't bother to describe every incidence other than to say I have and am currently being gaslighted and manipulated by my husband and  his use of my children into believing I am the one with the problem. I have attempted counseling both seperate and joint (that goes no where).

   The problem that really disturbs me at this point that I feel I need help with is a desperate unexplainable need for VALIDATION, for what I have experienced and the effects it has had on me and my children. To make a long story short, everything seems upside down and backwards. I fear I have lost my sense of  reality, and that I  have  so much anger that inexcusable behavior has erupted in myself. All my attempts to keep this "in control" and not spilling out of me is impossible if I have any dealings with my husband. Even during the good times. I realized quite some time ago that my "anger and resentment" is  always targeted as the "problem" but the CAUSE is never addressed. I realize I cannot go on, and in an effort to fight fire with fire (ineffective but don't we all try this futile effort), or ANY boundry setting I have ERUPTED, as such is just  NOT happening as far as he is concerned.

   The only hold up, is, could I be wrong?  Is there any help out there for us or me. I honestly believe by staying and trying to "effectively deal with this (I suspect he may in fact be clinically mental, but is so mental and  so able to be without  "guilt" )hat NO theraphy is going to help, nor can I do or say anything including mentally and emotionally shutting down, to change our severly disfunctional relationship and frankly I now feel I need a good long stay in the nearest mental hospital, just to "deprogram" from the whiplash effects of living with a possible mental, totally controlling man, not above using our children (adult children and minor children) so effectively that they don't realize how they are being used to "control" and get to me.

   Most counselors see it clearly UNTIL my husband presents his "nice guy"  who me, I am the victim here act and appear to NOW view me as "an overly emotional female" with delusional ideas.

   This has been so effective, and so damaging to my "sense of self" that I feel imobilized. I now feel victimized by the theraphist AND my husband.

  Can anyone shed some light on this and why this keeps happening in theraphy where people are supposed to be TRAINED to help not make worse?

 I couldn't help notice that your post seemed to come at the same time as mine. I believe that ANYONE irregardless of circumstances or individual differences if we happen to "hook up" with a person severly damaged by a previous spouse or partner we are doomed until THEY seek help. My husband was married twice to the same woman before me. His side, she had all the fault, and cheated on him and took him for everything. Had I been a little wiser with how this "fact" or his perceptions of it would affect me and our marriage I would have seen it for the "red flag" it was.

I believe that is why my husband is soooooo controlling and soooooo in need to control in passive aggressive ways, either that or the other possiblity, they, our men are the PROBLEM in their failed relationships and since they are without sin, they do not learn it is their attitudes and behavior that sets them up for the problems. Remember you have only heard "his side" of why that relationship failed. You may or may not have the "reality" of it.

Once burned good, men seem totally unable to see EACH woman as NOT  THAT woman that hurt them. Or they have the "get in the first lick" mentality. None the less, this is HIS problem that he is transferring to you. That which you fear the most you can make happen mentality. If he keeps it up you will WANT be rid of him, and he will have "predictited" and made happen what he fears.

Often this comes from HIS insecurity, or inability to work on self or the things he should to avoid this "pitfall".

It could also be that it is his way of saying "you work too much" .  My husband was so into his job, that I didn't see how anyone could prefer work to having some down time. He was a workalcoholic. I suspected cheating as NO one WANTS to work that much. I didn't understand WHY they work so much and in an effort to transfer his needs as MY fault,...........I was talked into being a spendalcoholic.  NOT true, but as his work excluded all else..........I did find myself using "safe" shopping as a form of entertainment, as he offered me none. He in fact, contributed to the manifestation of a problem.......that was NOT there when I was accused.    Call it cause and effect. It is not just JUSTIFICATION...........he actively insisted I go out or buy something.......and then he USED it against me. He needed the justification to overwork, but it had to be MY fault.

Perhaps he wants to, and like children who are never DIRECT..........he is hoping you are or will or is trying to set  you up to "excuse" his cheating?

Either way you must address this in a DIRECT way.............I will not be accused of what I am NOT doing anymore................ask him what he is obsessed with this idea and discuss how HE can deal with it. Listen to what he says ONLY if he is willing to be totally honest and direct. Perhaps he is trying to tell you something and the "you are cheating" is his way of leading into it.