Messages By: wildwood

  My problem is my reactions to his  emotional abuse. I may have, in my efforts to set boundries, have crossed the line. I can't find my way back.  Each and every time I have asked my husband for 28 years,  for more closeness, more "teamwork", some recreation, some support with dicipline, less work on his part, or virtually anything that had to do with "my comfort level" has resulted in a pattern of emotional and financial abuse that is all too familiar by now. 

   We have a cycle of this until I am mentally and physically sick.  My having ANY "personal comfort level" need ,to include the temperature in the house, is seen as an act of aggression by my husband. While I may "get away or be "set up" for an action independant of his as OK at any given time, I ALWAYS pay for it later.

  He has been VERY effective at so much "punishment" of the psychological kind, that I alter between total shutdown fututile attempts to retain some self and identity,  and utter RAGE. Grocery shopping may be ok,  and then it may NOT REALLY be ok. I have noted that I am always accussed of spending tooo much, but I cannot point out he didn't BUY enough for five people.  He may buy it and cook it, or he may buy it and expect ME to cook it. He may fix dinner and he may not. I haven't any "plans" of course, so I look incompetent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    He wants to do the shopping.  (another area he wants total control of) .

He is hell bent on stealing my idenity as the "woman(mother)  of the house" I asked to have a "game plan" of just who is going to be doing the shopping permanant or week to week and he REFUSED to cooperate with THAT logical solution. Clearly NO boundries on HIM.

   He is extremely passive aggressive, forgetful, denial oriented and blame throwing. All efforts on his part have to be "conditional" and he  never  budges off his mountain until he is about to lose his "scapegoat step and fetch it." If he wants it I am supposed to "give it up" or get it done.

    If I do not conform with his "views" about mine (views)  not being important, he goes into psychological warfare.  Withholding "my turn"  (recriprocating when I might be in the mood", or he goes into  totally withholding ANY involvement in ANY interactions but those that serve him to include sex,  isolating himself, overdrive in doing or totally taking over what I am asking team work in by himself, shutting me out of problem solving entirely,  removing my opinions regarding parenting, and in effect  his "his way or I pay" attitudes are AGAIN making the statement all over that I will be available to do for him, answer his questions, explain myself, change my attitude, get over my resentment, accept his forgetting,   (repeat performances of total selfish acts and attitudes) ie in short all his invalidating,  denial and diverting tactics MUST be in force and accepted or ELSE.

   He IS not wrong, won't have  anything at all to do with even "considering" proof to  the the contrary , ie we discuss and discuss and then bingo, he gets up and off he goes to repeat it or do it "his way". I realize how effective (and what tools ie my giving a whiff ) he uses to engage SOLELY to NOT be accussed of  his "not discussing it" and then it is as if we never did discuss it.  Naturally I feel crazy, most of the time. I can no longer function. I have to "seek permission" so to speak. I realize this is NUTS, but if I don't then I am not cooperating.  I have noticed "cooperating" isn't being recriprocated. I don't WANT to answer for everything,  while he answers for NOTHING.

   He will literally sit on the couch for hours  (during his or my instigated discussions) under the guise of "problem solving" only to go to sleep or hold firm to his reality and his only.  It is like he "checks out" and yet baits me to "say more and more and more" simply so he can sleep,  while appearing to be cooperating, then   he gets up and here we go deny it, forget it  or ignore it.

   In short he "pretends" to be seeking understanding or to   give understand then just gets up and does the same thing again in hours or less than a day and claims to have forgotten the marathon discussions (he asked what was wrong, or to solve)  to bring more equity into the relationship.

   When I refuse to bite this bait (to discuss it) and try to ignore him ENTIRELY and go on about my business in spite of ................... he just prattles on in his life, hovering over me and directing me,  as if he is the only one living here.  We both shop (waste money).....fight over the vacuum, laundry, homework isn't done as after all "who is minding the store?" is anyones guess. He has been home daily for less than six months and is the keeping of all knowledge and an expert at everything.

    Therefore our lives and our children and our home, are in an all encompassing and  rapid decline. ........that is worse than it ever was (who would have thought it possible, that two people could not accomplish more than one?).

  He has assigned himself about five chores that he comes to without fail, to the exclusion of everything else, and then "dabbles" in other areas just enough to totally throw me "off my agenda", and does them in major incomplete ways and expects PRAISE. Next day, he just drops the ball at will.

    I have come to see that he has no problems with APPEARING to be "open"  and cooperating, as long as he doesn't have to BE open and cooperating (to more than one view).

    In an effort to hold my "newly learned" skills and set  boundries while all are being grossly violated, I have increasingly become "abusive" myself. Buttons are being pushed DAILY since he has retired. I have been advised to "not react", however NOT reacting, to his attempts to control my feelings and thoughts and every MOVE, and he up the ante tactics  to get the affirmative (for his plans or views or actions) or an apology FROM me ( for not accepting those things that hurt MY comfort zone) have been met with "more  psychological abuse" and warfare.

  At this point it is merely psychological warfare of the "YOU said I didn't , He remembers NOTHING, "That didn't happen that way...... you started it with your actions" gaslighting variety that of course leave him feeling the "victim" rather than the actual perpetrator. It is like you live with a human FORM, but not a human being.

  Every incident is totally rewritten so that he is never wrong.  It goes like this:

  He comes to me out of the blue, and asks what I am doing. I tell him what I am doing. But am still "wanting to elaborate" beyond two word sentences.  (such as I am getting this ready for the kitten to play in,  since the other cats haven't accepted her yet).   Clearly one with eyes can see what I am doing at face value ONLY. (folding clothes, taking a bath, fixing the cats cage etc.) I ask him why (he is asking )and I look up and he is walking away. I challenge his "rudeness" and HERE WE GO.

 If I don't answer him at all, he refuses to stop there. We now have a huge fight on our hands regarding why HE didn't anwer ME but clearly expected me to answer HIM. And why did he ask or bother me ANYWAY?.

    I have lived a mono tone life, everyday since he has retired, but occassionally I "elaborate" or want "answers" as to why he is now "hovering and playing sixty questions" instead of just "asking if I want help" or stating his purpose in even engaging in a "conversation".

  My life is full of such "one sided" interactions. I am not really SURE how it happens but no matter what boundries are set up, what words I say, or what actions I do. or don't do...........all results in "status quo" retention.  Where he is "in charge" and takes my words, thoughts, actions and feelings and "twists" them until they are HIS, and no longer belong to me. He doesn't  always yell or rage or really do much you would call  OBVIOUSLY abusive  sometimes unless I (by default or otherwise happen to win as he sees it) , (the typical) anymore but he still makes EVERYTHING all about him, for him, and ONLY him.

  I can no longer keep a "whatever" attitude without totally allow myself to be erased or stolen. Now, I have let MY years of  anger and rage out. It is so assinine, but so "human " of me,  I realize I m in a total NO WIN.

  We can go days with out talking irritating each other, or just "motioning" or we can talk and NOTHING really happens.  (I get angry, now, however) I opt for "sleepwalking" through life.  Trouble is he keeps "waking me" and therefore  is able to own and control me. Cat and mouse. HELP

 For 28 years I have lived with a man, I have finally come to realize, is unable to love anyone but himself. He has mother hatred problems and is extremely emotionally manipulative and totally unable to tell the truth (unless there is a payoff to him), be emotionally available, or ever take any responsibility for his "quirks" causing problems in our marriage.

We have gone to many counselors (not long enough to do any good, cause too many do NOT understand passive aggressive emotional abuse and because he is such a good liar to himself and others). 

Recently I left for three days (did not ASK his permission, but just told him I was going, and he SEEMED to support it), even to offering airline tickets)  to attend my favorite uncle's funeral. I had a wonderful time, if such is possible, seeing my old "family" of multiple relatives I hadn't been able to see in over 20 years. It was like I never left. I felt to accepted and appreciated and entertained by talking to people about the type of things that they and I are interested in (so refreshing from the political talk that is my husbands  ONLY idea of conversation),

I got back two days before my birthday. My husband had asked what I wanted for my birthday, and I said a new metal detector, if we can afford it. Since the funeral was so unexpected, I had had no time to shop around for the detector I wanted until I got back. My husband has been suffering from "new car fever" and out of the blue the minute I got back before I even got unpacked he started talking about "looking about cars".  Frankly I wanted to discuss the expense further, and since we just got a little extra from his retirement account FINALLY kicking in, I wasn't in the mood AT THAT POINT IN TIME to discuss it or do it. I told him this. Selfishly if we went shopping for anything, I wanted it to be my birthday present, not his car. As it happens my daughter knew someone who was selling a detector and they let me bring it home to "try it out" with the possibility I might buy it. It wasn't cheap, and so before I gave an answer to them, I asked if my husband would go with me to comparision shop. As I have gotten older I really don't like driving long distances alone, and most shops selling detectors were a ways from where we live.

He kept being noncommital, and negative about accompaning me to check out other detectors and kept pushing this loaner off on me. I wasn't sure it was the one I wanted pretty sure but I wanted to "check out " others in this price range 350.00! To me this was alot of money, and I didn't want to make a "snap judgement" without shopping around to be sure.

In the meantime my daughter told him it would be nice to take me to this winery/sandwich shop her and I go to for my birthday. (let me add in the past my hubby ALWAYS sabotouges US having any date nites anniversary evening or ANY time having fun as a couple) I didn't even bother to "expect" anything for my birthday except to buy my own gift. Amazingly he asked if I wanted to go there, and sad to say like a school girl I got all excited about him actually putting self aside on my birthday to do something for me or us.

The morning of  my birthday as I was getting dressed for our "day in Winnsboro" he asked me what we were going to do. Somewhat stunned I replied " Well I guess I don't know, I thought you invited me to lunch at Winnsboro?" He said, (like a little kid) " well let me pick what we are going to do, lets go look at cars THEN go to Winnsboro." I said you mean I am getting dressed on MY birthday to go car shopping for a car for you? We won't have time to do both, and I am really hurt that you are attempting to use my birthday to get something for YOURSELF. Mind you, after he invited me, I sacked all plans to go shopping for a detector, or to ask him to accompany me while I detected  and tried out the one I was trying to decide on in a nearby old park,  nixed any other plans with anyone else for my birthday. In short thinking he was TRYING to make my day special for me, I dropped any other thing I might have chosen to do on my birthday to show my appreciation for his TRYING and his invitation.  Then it hit me, I OWED HIM for his ALLOWING me to attend my uncles funeral and he was so anxious to cash in on my debt to him, that he couldn't even wait till my birthday was over, and us going to Winnsboro was CONDITIONAL on his getting to buy a car for himself.

Later when my daughter scolded him for his "insensitivity" and selfish behavior, he told her that I WANTED a car! When she said that is bs, I know mother better than that, stop lying. He said, "well she just needs to leave emotions out of it".  This is blatant PA self centered behavior, not the honest "ooops" he is trying to sell me on. Anyone past the age of  ten should be able to grasp that you don't buy for yourself on someone elses b day and how to gracefully "let em have THEIR day".  It seems that every "occassion" that isn't about him is sabotouged in such a manner, and I am still reeling from his lies, and manipulations and selfishness. Not suprised mind you but  when confronted about how much this hurt, He didn't seem even slightly remorseful, but defiant about how I had "ruined my own birthday. THEN he started rewriting, with me being the selfish, too emotional, or picky on" This is his MO and in some way or another he is a jerk whenever it isn't "all about him".  Because of such hurtful REPEAT bad behavior and lies to make him the victim, I have told him leave, we need a divorice and that is that. (we were and have been borderline for years now, with me disgusted with HIS love affair with self and his passive aggression) This illustrated to me that his is immature and incapable of EVER thinking of others, unless there is an ANGLE in it for him. What do you guys think?

Yes, I agree 100 percent. It was this site (and Dr. Irene)  two years or more ago that helped me understand the behavior that in reality made NO sense, showed no heart, and made me realize it wasn't all me.  I have read everything there numerous times, as I have many self help books on this type abuse. To them, it isn't abuse at all but the only way they know to live. It is like expecting a dog to behave like a cat. Any thing else is so foreign and so unreal to them.  Others only exist to serve THEM. Yet there is a level of consicous choice to irritate and aggravate  and manipulate everything to their level of NEED, and serve only self, that much is clear. They just don't see what they do from the way NORMAL people would, or  how it damages and why, anymore than a baby that cries instead of asking for what it wants would, in short they have only one way to communicate and get their own needs met. VERY MANIPUlATIVE, in everything. Totally irate if denied, or crossed. Unfortunately, not one single counselor we attempted to see (he didn't want help and wasn't even aware of another "way" to be, anymore than EVIL comes naturally to you or I), ever once focused or "got it" regarding how much this personality "flaw" effected and was directly responsible for our problems.  My dependancy, my feelings, my reality came up as the problem over and over, I finally told one counselor ENOUGH about MY dependancy........lets look at how much HE NEEDS ME, and why HE needs to lie, manipulate and abuse emotionally for his very existance. It is his AIR. The pa behavior is how he serves his narcissism, without the appearance of any wrongdoing on his part. Yes, it is not only not easy to live with but has RUINED our family and everyone elses self esteem, as it is so subtle (not always) and so disquised. In fact I was told not to psycho anaylise my partner, show appreciation, and to "tolerate" as he is just "acting out", this about his drinking. It seems no matter where I go for validation or support or advise in the professional field from counselors to legal assistance, they remain totally snowballed and clueless as to how difficult and emotionally damaging to YOU, the REAL victim, it is  to deal with people like this.

On the surface he is the nicest guy in the world, (to others he is capable of manipulating or impressing or short term interactions)  works hard (two jobs) and is capable of kindness when it will serve HIM. Otherwise look out.

 If you expect your emotional needs met, you are truly barking up the wrong tree. Unless there is an angle in it for THEM, a payoff for being kind,  or you can just sit on it, take a hike or live under my way or the highway, (for you) so to speak.

Professionals and other people so clueless to the REAL him have so rattled my self esteem in the past that it is nice to get a "fresh" view from REAL people. Thanks so much for your reply, it is easy to be manipulated into "the payoff to them" when in reality you didn't get anything for yourself. Life is not totally about tit for tat, and if you pay attention you rarely get your "tat" but they always expect their tit! Thanks again.

 I experience this daily, and it is one of the reasons I have come to realize my marriage must end or at the least (at our ages and due to financial concerns) we cannot live together. No matter how myself and the kids were neglected, ignored, hurt, used or blamed by my husbands irrational, selfish, abusive (emotional) and self centered behavior, He is the victim, I we are doing some injustice to HIM. A stupid example of HIS thinking, lets say I mentioned (in the past) our youngest d wants to go trick or treating,  and I ask him...........will you accompany us ( to include him in the moment or simply  have him there as our "protector", he will say, " I don't want to go trick or treating".  (Notice he doesn't deal with the Question as an ADULT, but as a child behaving as if he was asked, "what do you want to do for YOUR halloween activity?. I have to remind him, A. It isn't about YOUR wants, it is an invitation to include you in OURS, B. This is what children WANT to do, support her childhood, get over yourself! C. I wasn't asking what YOU wanted but if you would go as a PARENT letting your child be a child. D. Why are you so selfishly making me choose between "children" (meaning his selfish competative self with his own child) E. You misunderstood the question in the first place, I did not ask what YOU wanted! and F. When are YOU going to grow up and get over self ? and G. To myself, Why am I with this man/child?

 Any attempt to set any expectations, boundries, or hope to be treated as SEPERATE persons in our own right, sets him into a bully/spoiled brat looking for revenge or a "poor me" how can you be so mean toot. Things go badly the minute I "point out his only regard is for self", and why should his child NOT be able to count on Daddy, to support what SHE wants on this "kids" holiday. I also point out many adults ALSO appreciate the fun of watching their kids trick or treat, and many get in the moment and do fun stuff too, but NOT at the expence of denying their child of THEIR holiday fun. This of course leads to a fight (making the whole occassion a downer, instead of an upper). Naturally, disgusted from dealing with an adult child, I no longer want his self with us.........and he is just looking for an excuse to not support anyone but himself. Then he POUTS and acts like a neglected child to a situation he created by NEVER being able to get over himself.

One day I had a lightbulb moment. This is not seen as odd to him, for he operates from the realm that it IS or should be all about him, and everything is "tilted" in favor of an opportunity for him to PLAY the victim if it isn't ABOUT HIM. I have come to know the smell of  " oh, my gosh he is JEALOUS of it NOT being about him, and he is going to ruin it, here we go.  It is my and the kids  job to  cater to him and his needs not our own, and to allow ourselves to be used and abused and emotionally messed with so that HE can CREATE opportunities to be the victim (even of his own making). Each incident is "created" because of his narcissistic NEEDS, his feeling of being "abandoned", his immaturity, his perpetual need to be the FOCUS of all things, and his need to BLAME others if he is NOT. They TWIST all things to be "injuries" to themselves, rather than just daily events where THEY are not the ONLY IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD.  My guess, your husband doesn't give a flip about accompanying you and the kids as an ADULT participating in the fun,  that from the get go he actually RESENTS the focus off himself, therefore sabotouged his own self  and you and starts with the GUILT , with his sick needs paramount, and he is looking to blame YOU so HE can be the one victimized. He is "stealing" every moment of pleasure from others, so it can be about HIM, and if unsuccessful (you went anyway and had a good time), he must FEEL and play the victim.

You and your children are just "players in HIS drama". If he REALLY didn't want to miss this once in a lifetime experience, he could have gotten over hisself and GONE with you, and SHARED the moment, but he chose to UPSTAGE it and saw an OPPORTUNITY to make it about him, by his "poor me" after the fact declarations making you and your children GUILTY of injuring HIM.

Sad isn't it?

  I wanted to add to my post. It is very very difficult for us to understand this convoluted thinking, and when they accuse us of "being self centered" and childish we actually examine this as a possibility...........everyone has some child in them. We all like to have fun, and one of my greatest joys of having children is in some ways WITH them I can feed the need to have good old fashioned FUN, especially the FUN of  introducing them to "Traditional fun", at holiday times, reliving my childhood memories, the fun of being the "orchestrator" of THEIR fun times. There is nothing wrong with being "childish" WITH your children, making them the focus. That is what parents do, it is the greatest gift. However the differences (subtle as it seems to hubby)  is    doing this WITH and FOR the childrens  benefit as the primary.           Not at the expense of your children's FUN. We act "childish" for their BENEFIT as the primary focus. We don't DENY them their FUN, and make ourselves the FOCUS. Sabotouging a childs need to be a child, is a MAJOR theme of discontent in our marriage. He doesn't like FUN, he wouldn't know it if it hit him in the face. FUN to him is manipulating others away from THEIR wants and needs...........and making the FOCUS HIS.

One way he "stages" is to plan or suggest something HE wants (he doesn't REALLY even bother to KNOW his own children or me so he is clueless here).  He likes musicals. He is the ONLY one in the family who does. He will spend a fortune on tickets for something HE wants..........or a movie HE wants to see (when they were small, it would be an ADULT movie and NOT age approriate at all) and then POUTS if everyone isn't estatic about it. He then says something like, "you never want to do what I want to do", I don't know why I try.  I will say,  that is because you are serving yourself, and not really thinking of ANY activities but those YOU want, for yourself. If he does plan something (in the past) it is about what HE wants, therefore, everyone must want it.  (we are all just supposed to forget all the times he sabotouged what WE did want to do and now cater to HIS SELFISH needs to FORCE what HE likes on us) He is VERY childish if not told how "wonderful" it was, even if it is something, no one else really WANTS to do. No one wants to hurt his feelings, because Daddy is "trying", however what he is trying is MAKE everyone like what he and he alone likes. Naturally he never recriprocates and involve himself in what  " we really DO like to do".  Also, in the past he makes declarations about doing stuff we can NO way afford to do, BEFORE even talking about it BEFORE we blurt it out to the kids, only to  disappoint them, with   we don't have  the money"..so sorry. Or ooops he can't get the time off. It is like the saying it is enough. Of course, he won't just have a picnic, go to a park, or something local we CAN afford or go to any of the many mini vacation spots closer to home, that we COULD afford. It is therefore nothing but another way  to "appear" good while not doing any good at all. I tried to tell him in the past, don't set people up for dissappointment this way, it is so cruel to do children like that. He isn't interested in that angle, only that HE appears to be "thinking of others" when in fact he isn't, just trying to "look good" thinking of himself alone.

I will admit at first your post sounded like you were attempting to "play the victim" because your wife won't "allow" herself to be hurt and puts up her walls. But then I read this post, and like a women decided to give the benefit of the doubt.

 Abuse victims of any kind, finally do "shut down" to the abuse, the apologies, the excuses, and the blame game or denial abusers use to justify their stuff. Most women are not naturally so hard, it just doesn't happen for most of us, but when we are reapeatedly discounted or emotionally (or physically)  abused with the memememememe's and the disregard for our "softness" and needs,  we get VERY hard if we can't just "get away". 

This process takes years with some women  it FINALLy occurs  as a natural means to protect self, they just shut down and seek to "rid" themselves of the cause of the pain  of repeated abuses  that the  abusers cause to us and our children ANY way we can, even to taking DRASTIC measures if necessary.   With most women it takes alot, for us not to a. give the benefit of the doubt and b. take it on as a shortcoming on OUR part that we must be guilty of (and therefore responsible to "fix" )like we can c. seek understanding or clarification  as to what will make it stop d. ask nicely for better respect and treatment and e. read a marriage guide looking for answers and f. try to solve it by talking it out, thinking you guys must  just "not get it" and g. asking for counseling thinking someone else can help you "get it" and stop  you from irreperaply damaging the relationship and us over and over  while not taking any personal responsibility for yourselves doing the damage and attempting to pass it  as our fault for not doing what we are told, not pretty enough or not enough something...............or you pass it  off as "shake it off and come back in the game", (I guess you have learned women don't' do that by now )   or  you guys hope to hide it under the already bulging rug with flowers or an insincere apology. and on and on and on  we go looking for the solution (or an escape from you) as to why the men we love KEEP doing hurtfull stuff over and over with NO regard for us or our children.

 Some women begin to yell, push and shove back emotionally and sometimes physically  to get it to stop. Now TWO people are being abusive to each other, and things  esculate.

I am sure your wife has been through  many if not all of  these stages including shutdown,  self blame and taken your blame and shame, and now has a a total lack of trust that you can change or will keep your word. She is probably right that you are patting your own back WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too soon. She cannot be your support system, but you must listen to her feedback if it is HER you want to impress. NOT ours. We are not in her shoes, and every abuse situation is somewhat unique.

 I know my husbands counselor suggested he show his appreaciation for me with  with flowers, when frankly I was sick of the feeble effort or "cure all" flowers as an apology thingy. He needed to STOP the hurtful things he was doing. PDQ. He was very confused as to why the flowers didn't work, or the jewelry, or the empty promises and the insincere apologies. He saw me as unreasonable, and hard to please. (he wasn't really TRYING to please, but wanting to appeart to be trying) He was looking for a quick fix without doing the "work" to repair the broken trust, and faith that he HAD to do.  An apology is the beginning not the end of the solution.

First you  recognize you need to beg forgiveness stating what you have done  item by item Not just generally like "I know I hurt you in the past, but  (you imply) hurry up and get over it and give me another chance to hurt you."

You know what these things are if you are really sorry you did them, don't make her do your apology for you by  her being forced by you into  her listing them (AGAIN) and you say," ok SORRY enough already,!" as you get angry at being expected to account..........do this sincerly and without anger or resentment and then SHOW her that you are sincerly sorry by NOT doing it again. EVER. To her or the kids or to her THROUGH the kids.

You seem to be sincere, and I understand how you fear giving up "power" and  you questioning how will you know if YOU are being manipulated into "having no say" or an opinion. That is the hump my husband will never get over. He has gotten so used to getting his way by any means possible including emotional blackmail, threats, withholding money, withdrawl, silent treatment , mentally erasing me, temper,  just doing it anyway or by recruiting the kids to his side or  by ignoring their dicipline entirely so they would side with him... putting me in a bad light to them for HIS  failings etc. ignoring them or spoiling them to hurt ME etc............. that he simply doesn't know how to compromise or consider my feelings and  clearly he fears doing so will emasculate him. He is confusing intimadation and dominance with manhood. I have lost respect and love  for him due to his confusion on this issue.

 It is thin ice for your guys to navigate, especially without any "example" to follow. Check out Dr. Phils site about what it takes to be a man, or a serious book that details what women DO want, what makes em tick, what is a real relationship builder (or destroyer) attitude. First the ME must change to a WE. Try finding Dr. Hartleys site called marriage builders and check out the policy of joint agreement. The best ever for obtaining  MUTUAL satisfaction in marriage and how to get it. Good luck and hope this helps you. Never give up, if you want your wifes love back. Make your actions not just your words and demands convince  her to  WANT to love you, it really isn't that hard if you forget the power plays and can accept being EQUALS in love and life.

 At the risk of being offensive here,  and I am certainly not an expert on "translation"  or interpretation of the Bible here, I also want to add you might join a  marriage building group or Bible study class, and look to clarify Your responsibility as a husband to your wife.

Please don't just read till you get to the "wives submit part" and stop. Read it all, and then go to a church or study group to seek REAL clarification of what it means. This can be tricky as many CHURCHES incorrectly interpet this passage and it has been used incorrectly to browbeat many women by its misuse. To  many women it is clear that it means to be a man,  one must follow God first, treat you wife like your own body and self wants to be treated. Honor her counsel and input. See yourself as a "part" of a partnership of different but equal persons............and that she can look to you to offer her what God offers all those he loves.........hint even God gave his followers and  human (male and female) creations "free wills" of their own. They can Chose to follow and live Godlike lives by his example of love, compassion, kindness etc. They are not FORCED into compliance or obediance by abusive means.

  Here is the deal. My emotionally abusive husband (not always name calling or labeling me, but also all the OTHER emotionally abusive behaviors) has DUG into our home. It goes like this, "what do you want me to do"    i SAY GET OUT..........THEN    he "might" pick something, say like folding laundry. ( the request doesn't matter it could have been, fix the gate outside.........he is very "girly" and therefore I have to contend with his  doing stuff  half assed AND making a competetion out of it)...........female like competetion...........think mother in law.............and you have my husband and the problems it gives in the domestic arena".  Ok, so glad for any help and to get him off the same old 3-4 non productive chores he ALWAYS does....(and yes, I do know he does that on purpose and I don't WANT his help ANYWHERE ANYMORE but he INSISts ON PRETENDING THAT EVERY THING IS NORMAL HERE still!!!!!)......I try and deal with his laundry folding "help". Problem is he choses to do EVERYTHING half assed (read that mess it up on purpose so you don't ask again). It has taken me at least six years to "train him" to the fact that washing it.......nope job not done..........folding it (if you call it folding I call it wadding stuff up into piles)............putting it away..............or hanging it up.  

 He apparently doesn't "get it" about permant press, and using the dryer to do your work for you, but just wads up jeans that if laid out flat, right out of the dryer or hung up PDQ, won't need ironing!  This is maddening to me to have all this HELP (When I just want him gone)  and in reality have all this work, chaos and unnecessary redo tasks cause of all of his "HELP".

Another thing he does or did for years was to fold it in the LIVING ROOM and then LEAVE it there for DAYS and DAYS making the already crowded and cluttered living room look like S&^%&%&%!  SIX YEARS to just one task!  We have two girls still at home and he STILL mixes up everyones stuff and who knows where it will end up.  ANOTHER thing,  long time ago when I thought he WAS still trying to help) I made the simple request that he not put single socks in drawers, as it makes it very hard to EVER match them up again.......especially if child x's socks are in child d's drawers and so on. We fought about that and he kept doing it anyway until I threw a HUGE FIT........telling him it makes MORE work for me to scurry around looking for the matches when someone NEEDS socks. 

 I "instructed him*, I know sound sick, as to WHERE the single sock hamper is, and ask if he would "just put em in there and forget about it" I will deal with them, NOPE he still sandwiched single socks (mine, his, kids, into the piles). FINALLY, years later I got through to him, how this is one of those RESENTMENT issues leading to my need to "live alone" and he pouted about "being told what to do" for another six years", even now with the divorice just around the corner, he STILL can't see why I don't want his "help" anymore, and is still trying to do laundry...........

So okay, I say laundry is NOT his thing, it wasn't really what I wanted him to do in the first place just so he could dig at me in the the doing of it. (especially if he INSIST on reinventing the wheel here) HE chose to pick the seemingly easiest task, and he DELIBERATELY drug his feet JUST to get that done, and he DELIBERATELY made a fight out of a few simple request, for efficencies sake, that we  women learned when we were TEN about clothing care.

Now before someone tells me I a nitpicker,,,,,,,please understand,,,,,,,,,,he does this with EVERYTHING he attempts to do. He, of course being a he, is an expert on EVERYTHING......and yes, I think it is passive aggressive..........to make no attempt to LEARN how to do something..........(from any source) or to offer himself open to any cooperative effort......... or to listen to what to me is "common sense" to make the work load easier..............so ...........you guessed it He drives me NUTS on purpose so I just want him to STOPPPPPPPPPPPP with all the help.  He wins again, and is STILL trying this s&)(*&)(*)(*& though he has been told to leave.

Problem is he THEN just sits and READS all day.......or insists on being a totaly waste of humanity...........in OUR house, soon to be mine I hope.   How do you deal with them living in the house while you work on getting the stuff together to get a divorice?  I have left in the past, and frankly I too am DUG in as my children do not need to forgo their stability for his "games"

The problem...................he cannot independantly accomplish even the simplist task..........have any "advice or hey this way is easiest on you" comments............or rationalize out  WHY you are making the request..............EVEN when the girls come to us and whine how they have everyones clothes in their drawers.......right down to occassionally DADDY's socks and undies!!!!!!!!!

Ok, you say don't "sweat" the small stuff.........be grateful you have a husband willing to help out. You would have to LIVE it to know just how crazy such passive aggressive stuff makes everyone. Not to mention the constant bickering as to WHY no one can tell him ANYTHING or how he finally seems to get it, just maybe ,only to revert at will to doing his THING all over just to piss you off, with no regard for the chaos that results.

All you would have to do is come to my house to see I am not "fanatical" (after raising four children who can be?) But I do not understand why he insist on being so difficult over a simple task that is requested of him. Only "dissappoint" on purpose. Or it is "his way or the highway"............If you do say "just get out of the house" if you are not willing to be "coooperative" for productivities sake....(this is what he is aiming for anyway so he can squander time outside doing very little of anything or making a simple task take ALL DAY).....then you have to STOP what you are doing to be "goofer" (go for every tool he needs) .........or step and fetch it or to come ADMIRE and APPLAUD ANYTHING he does, every ten minutes.........so YOU cannot get anything done yourself.

Anyway, he is now (since he retirement it is a million times WORSE) an EXPERT DOMESTIC ENGINEER and has taken over the INSIDE of the house.  (he already had claimed sole ownership of the OUTSIDE, and is just as difficult regarding that) Our daughter actually had TWO baths in one night, because he totally shut me out when I told him, and SHE told him she had already had a bath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have three bags of potatoes right now..........cause he bought a bag and I bought a bag (not knowing he did) and it goes on and on and on.

He is a suddeningly  a "perfect parent" guy without "bothering to see" how imperfect he is. Nope it is just the appearence of "trying" or overkill, contrary passive aggressive attempts or spoiling or  two baths in one day cause HE IS NOW in charge and without flaw!!!!!!!!!!. He is jockying for custody...or trying to win our oldest to his side........with the poor Daddy's.....based on questionable motives.

How do you deal with this behavior..............he need to appear good when what he is doing is evil, EVERYDAY, while YOU try and do business and work at either getting THEM OUT....or getting out yourself.

I am sorry, as I know many of you have much more SEVERE abuse...........but HOW can you deal with this and much worse (in my case and others) while they work to UNDERMINE your objective and you know this is being done by them in the hope........... this makes you look harrassed, picky and incompetent? How do you deal with them hiding behind you (dealing with the 18 year old) and stand by and do NOTHING while your child gets away with calling you a "crazy bitch" cause they have allowed them to do whatever they want and you can't give "consequences" for such behavior that your husband doesn't UNDO, and therefore rendering YOU the REAL parent, totally ineffective?

I am shattered, exhausted, and frankly totally unable to "get out"  or succede in getting  him to get out, or  manage to focus on how to help myself  because of the raging "fires" he sits on his arse (if he isn't indulged like a child)  and fans the flames of.

He is a master,  BY NOW,  of  knowing how to do this, and I have begun to realize he LIKES this stuff and is hoping to drive me out. I have no where to go, that I can stay at for any length of time, and no money available (we have a lots of money in a retirement account I cannot tap to help myself without his cooperation)

Do I take out a loan, put an attorney on a credit card? There is NO way I can save enough, and couldn't seem to in the past. If I get a job, (like I could at my age......a decent one) he will just refuse to part with ANY money.........or poison the kids, or settle in and mistreat or make it VERY diffcult for me to even think about getting there on time or everyday and on and on.

HELP, I need some ideas.

I make too much money to go to a shelter, and here you have to go ONLY through the Sheriffs office and since I am not physically abused that is out.

  You are exactly right, and thanks............. having someone actually COUNT the his, he, and him really illustrates to me and others here, (how embarrassing!)  how much  MIND control they are capable of INSISTING on. I mean you can't get out, away or ignore em, tolerate it or otherwise seem to get respect or get along,  or  even give em a dose of their own medicine cause they won't SWALLOW, they spit it back in your face!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Therefore they never LEARN or have any reason to respect boundries.  No consequences.  I sometimes realize he is acting out of fear or low self esteem, BUT those things did not stop him from doing stuff (staying gone alot, drinking too much, being a self centered jerk,  or emotionally cruel to ME, in addition to the GAMES), so how fearful is he? 

I am trying to deal with me, but have come to finally realize that living with him in the house......will make this impossible and it always has.  Boundry setting is JUST the beginning.  Frankly I do not think them capable of honoring ANY boundries, and it is a challenge to them to make it about them, so we must be careful to assume that boundry setting is going to work, and in fact can often esculate more of what we already have.

Thanks again, I am a work in progress

 I think I am on my last leg.  I am just beginning to feel the ramifications of my husbands  emotional abuse, in ways I never thought about or felt I could counteract. The long and short of it is this, years of emotional neglect, withdraw, silent treatment (directed ONLY at me, while being over attenitive to others, to include totally spoiling out children SOLELY to irritate me) and various other things has left me feeling like I might as well just shoot myself.

I see NO way out as he has used our children to "get to me" emotionally for years or to limit my right to any freedoms or adult company. It was only after he retired and had NO more excuses for his "too busy" attitudes have I come to understand that it was really abuse all along.  He stays married for what he gets, certainly not for what he is willing to give. I now know there is NO way this is ever going to work. I simply cannot deal with his "rejections" and control anymore.

I really cannot deal with his use of our children (grown for the most part) but still at home, to deliver his "messages".  He has "replaced" me with his grown daughters, and as sick as this sounds, he knows and so do I that he will continue to dote on them and reward their disrespect to me, for his own selfish gains. It breaks my heart that he has successfully driven a wedge between us, after years of us being so close. He is on the warpath, ever since his heavy drinking came to light (found it in his car, his bag he carried to work everyday, everywhere).

He was asked to leave (my father was an alcoholic, as was his only a binger).  He "stopped" drinking, but not before he painted me black and gave me hell. This resulted in my "explosion".  The things said and done during this time of sheer hell (all blame put on me to me and about me to my kids), left me constantly fighting for my reality. I didn't survive it well, and due to his manipulations my girls amazingly have sided with him. I won't go into all the details, but he refused to leave, just sit up shop in our home to run me out, and unfortunately he is about to accomplish that very thing.  

 One day when he was gone, I took EVERYTHING financial from his desk (really my desk, it was a gift) and currently have it in a locked room. He was using total financial control, and chastizement of EVERY expenditure in front of our children to harrass and point to MY guilt. No matter what I bought (98%) of it for our family consisting of one totally grown daughter at home, a teen and 11 year old and sometimes to help our one independant child that I helped move out, he "shamed me" in front of them. Years of asking him to stop, only resulted in more of the same.

 I pleaded, explained, begged and ask for his help in this matter and all he did was sit me up with some very manipulative tactics to suffer his chastizement. He has brainwashed all our children into convoluted thinking. Unfortunately the crazy making aspects of this resulted in much war and screaming. From me and him. For the first time I KNEW I was right to be angry and WHY our lives were so "weird". 

 Now, though the marriage is totally dead (we still live together out of necessity) He DENIES everything, is postulating for their favor and therefore totally spoils them beyond belief. I apparently have lost all credibility with them. Not to mention all authority, rights or reason. HE has successfully swayed all but the youngest over to his side, and from there continues to abuse, while appearing not to. He lets his jury of peers, our children, be his read on how he is doing.

Naturally since they benefit greatly from his financial  and other spoilings and having never had a dad on a regular basis, and  since they are light years away from dealing with a controlling man, they LOVE it. Meanwhile I am continually disrespected and being totally erased from my home.  I can't just leave, as I have an 11 year old. Clearly he is going to keep this up, gaslighting, lying, forgetting and other emotional tortue to include rewarding our kids for misbehavior until he drives me out.

 NO one I mean no one understands what hell this is to have a man on the warpath playing games in your home. He is in total denial regarding his abuses including his alcohol abuse. He is into I know you are but what am I, and by sabotouge, and my "weakness' is milking this uncomfortable situation to mete out PUNISHMENT on me. He will not do one thing towards moving out, and it has now been six years or more.

Worse we only have one car now, so I have to try and  work around his abuses including a loss of freedom for myself.  I took control of the finances, which pissed him off and now all he does is sabotouge me there. I need him removed from our home immediately as emotional damage is all he is contributing. I am glad he stopped drinking (not really too sure about that) but his payback is even worse.  Those pointing the finger or being overly simplistic or cruel need not respond.   Support needed please.