Messages By: julie1418

Okay....I'll go there with you. 

As far as Grant feeling like the low man on the totem pole, that probably is a valid complaint. I don't know the specifics of their situation, but I can see how the SAHM gets wrapped up in all the responsibilities of motherhood, Dad/husband comes home and has difficulty penetrating the bond between mother and children and feels somewhat left out. I also can get that it is his home too, and he should be able to feel a sense that he belongs there. Those are valid, and I believe common, issues for parents of small children, and are more than worthy of discussion.  

That being said, THAT IS NOT WHAT GRANT BROUGHT TO THE SHOW. It may have been his intent, but it;s not what happened. He talked about the house not being up to his exacting standards, the laundry not being done "correctly", Kelly needing to be sexier and more available to him, he graded her cooking, and basically cut her down as a woman and a wife. He wanted Dr. Phil to give Kelly lessons so she could become a perfect "Stepford" (his word) wife. Any legitimate concerns he may have had are completely overshadowed by the fact that he is viewing his wife as a project rather than a person. Why this doesn't offend you as a woman and a wife is completely beyond me.  

As far as giving specifics, you really haven't. You have no obligation to give specifics about your marriage. I believe that can be personal and private, and you absolutely have the right to protect the intimacies of your marriage. But if you are going to use your experiences to claim to have clearer insight to these issues than the rest of us, we can only go by what you tell us. I keep reading that you did not do what you said you would do, and that your husband has a thing about full trash cans.  

I still think you are clinging to a rather simplistic hope that if Kelly does a better job around the house, and doesn't take Grant's criticism's too personally, everything will work out.  It's not that a cleaner house and a less sensitive nature are not worthy goals, they are just not, in my opinion, the biggest issues, nor a simple fix. If those qualities saved your marriage, more power to you, but I simply don't see it in this case. 

Let me preface this message by assuring you that it is not MY intention to be combative or sarcastic.   

"Up to a point," says Grant. "If I'm always coming down on her, it's going to break her down, it's going to break her spirit, and so I think if I'm a nice person to be around, who's a good influence, she'll kind of rise to her potential. She'll be able to breathe again and do some things. But when does she take over and kind of strive for excellence and want to do well?"

Dr. Phil just stares at Grant.  

Grant continues, "It's part of her too. I could do things to make it better for her, but eventually, she has to do things to make it better."  

 After watching both show, reading your postings, and reading the website synopsis of the show, I still have the feeling that you believe the ultimate goal should be to get your wife to come around to your way of thinking, to meet your expectations, and to trust you to decide what her potential should be. If you continue down that path, I don't believe you will find the harmony you are seeking. If you read the entire synopsis from the website, it's pretty clear Dr. Phil doesn't either. 

I do believe that your intentions very well may be to repair your relationship. I get the sense that your expectations and way of thinking make so much sense to you that you have difficulty fathoming that they may not work for someone else. You think if Kelly could live up to your expectations, she would be happier. People have different styles and personalities. Your wife may have a higher tolerance for chaos. That is not something you can FIX.  

I have read your previous posts where you have written some glowing commentary about Kelly. You two are still pretty young, you have three small children, and you have dealt with some serious health scares with a child. That is a lot to deal with in a short time. I understand you wanting to get out of the mentality of just surviving each day, and get to a place where you are embracing each day. My husband and I have struggled with this also. But if you view "project relationship" as getting Kelly on board with your vision, which may seem wonderful to you, without her input, without taking into account her strengths, talents, interests, etc., it simply won't work.  

The bottom line is, it really does not matter if I'm missing it. If your intentions are in fact pure, make sure Kelly isn't missing it. Your relationship is of course worthy of project status. I hope you get to a peaceful, happy place. 

Julie 

On an entirely unrelated note, I hope you managed to record 24 while you were on vacation. It was a pivotal episode (2 actually), and I'm still quite devastated by the turn of events.  

on impulse, I peeked to see if all was still quiet.....and now I can't resist responding. 

Without being very specific to Grant and Kelly, I think it's more the idea of one spouse creating a list for the other that offends most people rather than the actual quantity of items on the list. And I realize that in a conventional job, you would have a list of performance requirements, but being a SAHM is a somewhat precarious situation in that it is your whole world, your whole day. It is tricky to balance home as where you "work" and home as your safe refuge. And since your marriage primarily takes place in your home, it becomes even more sensitive. 

I stay at home because believe it is the best situation for my children. I have a Master's in education and was a school administrator before I had children. I had a place to go each day that, although it could be stressful and demanding, I was generally respected and had a high level of authority. If staying at home with my kids meant my husband, who is my most intimate partner and friend, set himself as my authority figure and evaluator, it would most definitely breed resentment. 

I also am not one of those SAHM who sees homemaking as my "career". Not to knock those who do (I have a sort of curious envy of those Moms), it just doesn't suit me.  I see my primary job to be raising my children to be successful human beings. I take care of  most of the household chores, because it's more convenient for me to do them, but I have not on any level raised homemaking to an art form, nor do I have any desire to. I don't think being a really good mother necessarily goes hand and hand with being a really good homemaker, cook, etc.   

I hope this answers your curiosity. Also, the "H" on keyboard is sticking, so please disregard any flagrant misspellings! 

Please realize that some posters are trying to goad Grant into posting something truly obnoxious for the sake of keeping a debate very heated. I have to admit that although I have not been overwhelmingly impressed by Grant, I have to admire his decision to sidestep these land mines.  

If you think women merely want to find fault with men, and have an "upper hand", hop on over to the boards for the "I'm a Slave to My Spouse". The two women who appeared on that show are being absolutely raked over the coals by predominantly female viewers. I think the vast majority of us truly want to have equal partnerships with our spouses.  

There is nothing inherently wrong with a traditional view of home and family, but in regards to this situation, I think your focus is a bit warped. When you are in a mature relationship based on mutual trust, respect and friendship, then the details of how things should work become much easier and not nearly as important. You mention Grant's "faults" as if they are merely blips in the big picture, but it seems to me that the spirit you bring to relationship IS the big picture. It is the foundation of the marriage, and without a strong foundation, nothing else really matters because eventually it will crumble away.  

I think we should avoid being on Grant's "side" or Kelly's "side" and choose to be on the "side" of promoting happy, healthy marriages (especially where children are involved). If five years from now Grant is on television as the male Martha Stewart and Kelly is running national seminars for spouses of anal engineers, but they are having a rockin' good time and enjoying the heck out of life and each other, we should all stand up and applaud. Forget about telling either of them to "Stand your ground, you're RIGHT!" and focus on encouraging them to find what WORKS for both of them. 

If a couple makes a decision about the division of work and they both agree to it, than they should both follow through with what they agreed to.  If they don't than a spouse has every right to be angry if things are continually not taken care of.   

In my marriage, we have agreed that my husband would be the breadwinner, and I would stay home to raise our children. Any change to that set-up would require some serious soul searching and negotiations. As far as division of labor.....we've never really talked that much about it. I do the majority of the stuff that needs to be done around the house, because it seems to make more sense at this time. But my husband and I are both mature, honest people. We have never had the need to seriously "divvy up" the chores. Sometimes he'll unload the dishwasher if he gets to it first, and I'm usually the one dragging the cans to the curb on garbage day.  

I will allow that my marriage requires a great deal of flexibility. My husband travels a great deal, and when he doesn't travel, he works from a home office. So he GETS what I do all day, and he GETS  that when he's away, I'm on my own from morning to night. Sometimes when he's home, it's worse. He can put in 70-80 hour weeks, and since his company is international, he can have calls scheduled at all hours. So he's dirtying dishes and clothes, and requiring meals, but he's not much help. Plus, I have to keep the boys from crying outside his door because they miss "daddy". If I didn't have a great ability to roll with the punches, we wouldn't make it. So I don't expect him to get bent out of shape about what I do or don't do. Sometimes we do get into minor spats about what needs to be done, but we quickly realize that we are BOTH working too hard, and there's no point in having a pissing contest about who is the most tired. 

If some marriages work better with very clear expectations and roles, that's fine. I have trouble imagining myself living like that. I prefer the "we're both in this together, let's find the best route to happiness" mentality. 

I think it also comes down to temperaments. My husband and I have very similar temperaments. Neither one of us are neat freaks nor are we slobs. I think problems can arise when one or both spouses live in the extreme. I think Grant feels more peaceful when life is VERY orderly, but he cannot impose that need onto Kelly. He may think she's having "bad days" and she may see it as dealing with the chaotic reality of three little ones. 

I think Grant thought Dr. Phil was going to send in the organizational experts, the SuperMoms, etc. to help Kelly. When the producers did the background work for the show, they discovered underlying issues that were more important than the organization and cooking. When Grant is not in defensive mode, he has admitted that Kelly works very hard. 

Bree, 

I am not trying to be combative, but if I remember correctly, you do not yet have children.  I am sure you are a very intelligent person, but until you have a child (never mind 3 toddlers) you cannot fully comprehend how life will change when you do. 

I am no slouch myself. I have a Master's degree in Education and have dealt with thousands of children and parents as a teacher and school administrator. My husband is a genius, literally, top 2 percent of IQ. We got so tired of people telling us we didn't get it. We thought we knew exactly what we were in for. Then we had kids and quickly realized we DIDN'T GET IT. It's just one of those things you can't fully understand until you go through it. 

If you are happy with your life and marriage, that's great. Maybe it's because I married a bit older and was already financially independent, but I cannot imagine thinking of it as HIS money, HIS house, etc. My husbands earns the money, but it is OUR life together. You seem content, and I'm sure your husband is honest and trustworthy so it's not a problem, but that is not a mentality I would want imposed upon me (even though my husband is also honest and trustworthy). 

You may not intent to be judgmental, but you are coming off that way. I sincerely hope you have wonderful children and can live up to all the values and ideals you have set for yourself. I just don't think you are yet a credible authority on the issue of how to be a stay at home mom. Right now, you are a stay at home wife. 

My last reply wiped out, so I'm going to try again. Forgive me if I post twice. 

I am rather reluctant to get very specific about Grant and Kelly, because in is recent posts, Grant seems to have calmed down and is perhaps doing some thoughtful reflection. Some posters seem to be trying to push him into defensive mode for their own enjoyment, and that is not my intent. 

So.....this is more for your clarity, and our friendly debate, than to provoke Grant. 

Go look at the boards for I'm a Slave to my Spouse and see if you still believe there is an age/gender bias. 

In my opinion, at least at the time the shows were aired, that Grant wanted Kelly more organized for her sake, but still to his standards. That will never work. If she wants to become better organized, and he doesn't want to interfere with the process, why doesn't he enlist the aid of an expert, and then stay out of it? 

I think Kelly got a lot of sympathy for several reasons..... 

1) She genuinely seems to love Grant and want to make her marriage work. By Grant's own admission, Kelly has been focusing on his concerns, just not "enough". 

2) Grant's complaints were so across the board, from cooking, cleaning, organization, sex appeal.....that it seems implausible that Kelly ever could meet his approval 

3)Not once has Kelly tried to turn the tables on Grant and complain that he doesn't help enough. She only expresses frustration with not feeling good enough for his demands. 

4)Grant's focus was very much on himself and his needs, and he seems to blow pass what it takes to care for three toddlers all day, every day. 

The "meaning" behind the words is quite debatable, hence close to 3000 posts!! 

You and I are never going to agree on all of this. I'm just glad we've been able to keep it civil  :) 

Be careful not to get defensive yourself. I've read what you've written to other posters, and I'm picking up a sense of you wanting to draw "sides" rather than engage in healthy debate and find middle ground. I agree some posters are becoming a bit mean-spirited.  

How are things going? Do you and Kelly both feel like you are making progress and getting to a happier place? Or are you still "white-knuckling" it? 

FYI....Kiefer will be on Jimmy Kimmell tonight  I have to DVR, but I'm interested to see what he might reveal. 

....and I'll take a step further... 

A few years ago my sister and her husband bought a house with a jungle of a back yard. The previous owners were serious gardeners, but they had been plagued with some serious illness so the backyard suffered a few years of neglect - you can imagine what it looked like. My sister got it in her head that gardening would be her new hobby (we all knew she was out of her mind!) and made elaborate plans and schedules for "backyard renovation". For a few months she kept at it, but became very discouraged when areas she had just cleared out quickly became overgrown again. She couldn't finish one area, take two weeks off, and then start a new area...it all kept growing!! The only way to do it would be to devote a large amount of time and energy to do it all pretty quickly, and then devote time to the necessary maintenance. 

Your relationship is very much like a garden. Once you get through the big jobs, there will always be maintenance work. I am glad you are making the commitment to get through  the hard stuff to get to the place where you can enjoy your garden (literally and figuratively). Good luck with both! 

I haven't read all of Self Matters, but Life Strategies was the "changing day in my life." My husband and I both read the Relationship book while we were dating, and I think that really helped us. When Self Matters came out, I was in an emotional honeymoon (kinda still am) and it wasn't as gripping for me. I have it on the shelves just in case!! 

If you guys appear on the show again, I'll be watching!! Thanks for sharing your progress. I do admire your willingness to open your life up to so many people, especially since I don't think it has led you down the path you originally had in mind.