Messages By: roxy_belle

I appreciate the welcome and you taking the time to respond to my post.  You are correct that overall I am very happy with my marriage and my life and am so in love with my hubby and also that I am very much questioning his character.  I don't know how to respect someone who is so willing to engage in activities that he knew without a doubt would be very hurful to me.  I know without doubt that this man would lay down his life for me without hesitation and that is a good feeling.   Sometimes though I just see what he did as choosing his whores and his own gratification over my well being.   

Your paragraph about men and their sexual thoughts and them giving in being a hard concept to accept is very true for me.  The painful part is too true.  I have been working very hard to believe that his porn usage was not in fact because he doesn't want me.  The great majority of the time I know this to be true - I can give him a couple of kisses on the cheek and look in his eyes in that certain way and he is ready.  He can run his hand along my hip and he is ready.  I know he desires me.  Well I know it most of the time.  There are still those days where doubt creeps back in.  He tells me how much he loves my body and how pretty I am every single day.  The problem now though, since I know he will lie, is trying to figure out if he means it or is just saying it to try and rebuild my self esteem and confidence which has been damaged.  He tells me there was never any comparison between me and the 'whores' - that there never could be.  I try to believe and I want to believe that.  I know I am not as young or pretty as many of the ones he looked at - but I want to believe that in his eyes I am perfect for him.  I don't care if I am just right for anyone else - just want to be for him, to really believe that.   

I think I have run off track.  I don't know if porn means he wants to cheat.  I never thought he would, but now I have come around to thinking he probably would if he felt there was no chance of getting caught.  He says that is why he went on with the porn - he wanted to do it and didn't think I would ever find out.  My fear that it may have happened in the past has only a slight basis - my hubby is career military and has occasionally has times where he is away from home.  Every time he has ever been in port we have either been on the phone or talking on IM the whole time he was there as far as I knew.  But since finding out about the porn I have started to wonder if he in fact did really indulge himself.  I never even thought about it before.  Never occurred to me he would think about it.  Now I just don't know.  Unfortunately you can't prove a negative.  He swears that not only has he not done that - that he has never talked on IM or in a chat room or on a website with another woman.  He swears he has had zero contact, either online or in the real world, with any woman that wasn't a mutual friend of ours.  I haven't found anything that proves he isn't telling the truth and I am sick of worrying about it.  Maybe I need to make a life decision to let go of this one thing and just accept he is telling the truth.  Or maybe that would be denial and just believing what I want to believe.   

You made me laugh with one comment.:  "until they find out that we have our eye on someone else".  That is so dang true.  As I mentioned, my hubby is in the military.  When he has been deployed I have occasionally gone to the bar on base to shoot pool.  Now - when I go it is only if the best friend couple we have are also there - she is the bartender and he is about 5'11 and 230 and is a big scary man.  My hubby had agreed it was okay for me to go out with them, because he knew I would be safe.  I always was, but got hit on more times than I can count.  Sucks how many military guys will try to do that to, but they do, even plenty who knew my hubby and me.  I was never in the least tempted and just shot pool and had fun and went home with our friends.  I never told hubby about the hits - figured it would just upset him.  After all this mess started with us though - I did tell him.  I believe I did it because I wanted him to know that many other men find me attractive and to know that, unlike him, I didn't give into my baser desires because I value our marriage and respect him too much to do anything that would hurt him.  I guess he got that - but he also got really mad and possessive.  He wanted to know who and when etc etc.  Suddenly  he is Mr. Outrage.  It is okay for him to spend untold hours looking at porn in its many varied forms, but if someone flirts with me, it is the end of the world.   

I've gone off track again. Staying on topic is another thing I have a problem with along with brevity!  Thx again for your post and the congrats.  I love having a big family.  :)  It is often a challenge, but more rewarding than I ever expected.  I know it isn't for everyone, but lotsa kids is just right for us.  One more thing before I post this - I am still trying to figure out how this board works.  I know other ppl responded to my post and I'll try to find them all and answer back, but be patient with me.  This board is crazy busy and it may take me a while to figure out how to best negotiate it.  I did find it interesting that this particular board has WAY WAY more posts than any others in the sex topic.  I hope someday I will have found my way back to trusting my husband and be confident in giving advice to others who are in the inital phases of dealing with this kind of thing.  Thx again Kim.  :)  Roxy 

I have had a breakthrough today and am feeling so happy and hopeful, for the first time in a long time.  I have this board and those of you who put time and energy into it, to thank.  So thank you!!  The first thing that kind of hit a note in me was reading the story of a lady who posted yesterday (I think, and I'm sorry I don't remember your name, but you really have all my empathy) - wherein she found out about her husband's porn use 2 1/2 years ago and is still stuck in anger and hurt and resentment and how much she hates it.  I have been there for 8 months now and it struck me that I don't want to still be here in 2 more years.  Then this morning I saw the advice thing Luv posted - here is a part that especially hit home to me: 

What is your payoff?
Do you want to get past this? Or is there a payoff you receive from the situation? Do you enjoy playing the victim or subjecting your partner to a life sentence? Do you fear that if you forgive a partner who truly is remorseful and has changed his/her behavior that you are "letting them get away with it?"

Assess your commitment level.
You can either handle being vulnerable with your partner again or you can't. And if you can't, you need to get out of this relationship and move on. And if you can, then you need to let him/her earn the trust back and start putting this relationship together again.

Consider the consequences.
If you have children, your decision will affect them as well. You do have responsibility here for what you do next. You have to make a decision about whether or not justice is best served by allowing your partner to re-earn your trust, or if it's better not to subject your family any longer to the current situation.

Decide if you can choose to forgive. (Amen)
Forgiveness is a choice. It doesn't mean what your partner did is OK. How much you trust your partner is in part about what your partner does, and in part a function of whether you have confidence to handle it if he/she disappoints you. If you find out that he/she strays again, can you handle that?
 

So much of that matched me.  I have actually told my husband I am afraid to forgive because it will mean he is just getting away with it and also because of my fears that he will hurt me again.  It just didn't seem fair that he could betray me and not suffer any consequences.  Well in fact when I look at it honestly he has suffered through my anger and hurt and mistrust for 8 months.  I guess I was feeling it was going to be a life sentence because my hurt was too big.  Then I read this and realized that forgiving doesn't give him permission to hurt me again - it just gives me permission to get out of the self and relationship destructive pattern I locked us into.  I also realized that I DO have the confidence to handle it if he disappoints me again.  I won't stay married (and he knows this to be unequivocally true), but I also won't curl up and die.  He understands he is going to have to continue to be 'transparent' and earn my trust back.  We talked about all of this for a long time today.  I actually looked him in the eye and said "I forgive you".  He put his head down for a few moments and looked up and said "thank you".  It was a wonderful moment for both of us and I feel so relieved that I won't be burdened with all those negative emotions anymore.   

Another post I read today (I believe it was from one of the guys and I'm sorry I again can't remember which of you it was - I should really take notes or pay better attention lol) was also very helpful.  As regards male masturbation - and how men do it simply because it feels good.  That was a lightbulb moment for me.  I know it should just be intuitive to realize that - but I had never thought about it so simply.  Even though my hubby and everyone else who talked about this with me, or reading it here on the boards, told me it had nothing to do with me or how I look or what I do or don't do, I don't think I ever truly believed it.  Then that guy explained why it feels good to a man and I was just like well of course.  Duh.  It also gave me a better understanding of why many men (mine included) feel like they have to hide it, because it can be threatening to the woman in their lives.  It really made sense to me, especially considering my hubby's background and the fact he has had several long stretches of celibacy in his life and so self gratification was all he had.  So I also talked about this with him and he agreed that all the poster said was true for him.  I told him I have absolutely no problem with him choosing to do that sometimes - as long as it doesn't involve looking at other women.  I can't control what picture he puts in his head and his fantasies are his own, but I just won't countenance porn being part of the process.  I told him he just shouldn't hide and keep it a secret and he says he won't.  I actually kind of like watching him do it (is this weird) and he is happy about that.  (that is probably tmi, sorry)  Another thing that was talked about (I believe in the same post) was how men also use masturbation as a way to fantasize doing things they are scared to ask their wives to do.  I know this is true of my hubby and in fact one positive thing that had already come out of this whole mess was we both put down a whole bunch of fantasies in a notebook - things we wanted to try.  There were a few things that he didn't have the nerve to write down because he thought I would think he was a freak, but he eventually just went ahead and tried them and found, to both of our happiness, that I enjoyed it.   He had a misperception that I was his 'good baby' and that, especially because of my past, I wouldn't be up for any kinkiness.  Right after all this started and I saw some of the kinds of pics he had I let him know I am in no way a prude and am more than willing to experiment as long as no other people or animals (lol) are involved.  I asked him today if part of the whole porn thing was being able to fantasize doing freaky things with those women and he still won't admit he did that - still maintains that he 'finished' to thoughts of doing things to me.  This is one area I still think he isn't being honest about (and someone said he is probably trying to keep from hurting me more and I think that is true), but I guess it is a lie I can live with.  I asked him if there are still things he wants to try that he has been afraid to mention and he said no, but he'll sure let me know if he thinks of any.   

Sorry, I am just going on and on.  Do I sound a little giddy?  I feel that way.  We're going to make it through this and I feel pretty confident this won't ever come up in our marriage again, but that if it does I will survive and still be a strong, caring, intelligent woman and mother.  I am still going to visit sites that have been recommended and also buy books.  I have to go back and look for the post where someone mentioned a book about men and their sexuality - that sounded like a good one for my hubby and I to read together.  He knows all about mine and how I work, because I am pretty dang good at communicating - but I think a book like that could only be helpful to us.  I will also check out the Patrick (was it Carnes or Karnes?) book - that also sounded helpful, as well as the website for COSA.   

Thanks again to everyone who read my (way too long) posts and gave advice and support.  I didn't expect to find some resolution so quickly and cannot tell you how grateful I am.  I hope I will eventually be able to help someone out like y'all have me.  Kudos to this board!  

Have a wonderful Memorial Day weekend and if you see a past or present Service Member - give them a thanks - whether you agree with any past or present conflict, it is my strong belief that the brave men and women who serve deserve all our gratitude.  :)  Roxy 

mshoty - I want to reply to your message and ask a few clarification questions, but I am a little reluctant to do so.  Not because I don't want to help you, but because I literally just today realized how I can and why I should forgive my husband for his transgressions with porn.  So I am not sure I am far enough along the road of forgivness to be offering someone else advice.  I will offer you my support - I really do know how painful it is to find out someone you love dearly will lie to you and betray you, no matter what their reasons are for doing so.  Most people here are going to tell you it isn't your fault and it has nothing to do with how you look or what you do/don't do in the bedroom - but you may not be ready to believe that.  It has taken me 8 months to believe it myself, but I finally do and I hope you do also eventually.   

You have all my empathy mshoty.  Please take care and keep posting here and I hope with all my heart you find some words that help you work through this awful situation.  Roxy 

Amy - I agree.  Nothing, and I mean nothing, makes me angrier than a child being hurt.  I was a victim of molestation as a child and never even told anyone until I married my husband (which helped me tell my Mom and that was so cathartic).  The only way I have found some peace with that is in ensuring that my 5 children are empowered so it won't happen to them, or that if it somehow does, they will tell me.  I have talked to all of them, in age appropriate ways, about sex and what is and what is not okay, making sure they know THEY own their bodies and noone is EVER allowed to violate them.  Again, I do everything I can to empower them.  Sadly, too many kids don't get that and end up as victims of monsters (although I know even empowerment doesn't always help, some kids are just snatched and no amount of preparedness helps them).  This is why I have written to my governor and reps and Senators - telling all of them we need Jessica's Law here - wherein molestation means a mandatory sentence of 25 years and not just a damn slap on the wrist (and when they do eventually get out, they are required to be electronically monitored and to hell with the ACLU, when you violate a child you lose your rights to move freely in society for the rest of your life IMO, because you have just sentenced that child to a lifetime of pain).  Recidivism is incredibly high for pedophiles and I am sick and dang tired of politicians and others just paying lip service to protecting children.  This law needs to be passed in all 50 states.  So Amy - and anyone else who is as angered by molesters as we are - if your state hasn't passed mandatory sentencing laws for pedophiles, get busy and write letters - use that anger in a positive way.   

Sorry for the soap-box moment, but I meant it when I said nothing makes me angrier than a child being hurt.  Roxy 

I told y'all in my first post this last Wednesday that before I joined and posted here, I spent a few days reading over old posts.  I read so many caring, supportive posts full of good advice and some that contained hard truths.  There was only one time I got angry at what I saw posted.  A male said that part of why some men turn to porn is because of how the women look - ya know - skinny, great hair and nails, perfectly done makeup, the come hither look, fake breasts and other cosmetic surgery as needed.  That bothered me alot because over and over here I read - it isn't your (the woman's) fault and has nothing to do with how you look and then I see this post where the opposite is said.  Here is what I wanted to tell that guy: 

Not ALL men are looking for Barbie.  My husband actually very much prefers voluptuous women.  If they are under 150 lbs, he isn't really interested and in fact I have to watch the scale to make sure I keep on an amount of weight that keeps me looking how he likes me.  This doesn't mean I sacrifice my health to please him - I am almost 5'8" and size 12 - and very curvy - I am stacked and have some junk in my trunk lol.  I am athletic and very healthy and most days I eat lowfat and lowcal foods.  But if I decide to eat some pizza, then I can and not worry about it like Barbie does.  I stay active in fun ways, but don't spend 3 hours a day at the gym trying to have a six-pack.  In fact my hubby would hate it if my body got all hard and ropy.  He LOVES my curves and my softness.  He loves how we feel together (and so do I).  You may think he is unique - but I know for a fact he isn't.  When I discovered his porn deal, I found he belonged to many BBW groups and there are tons of other men who do also.  I had no idea how many men love rounded women.  Some even like them really really big.  So, to each his own.  Some like the Barbie look and others love softness.  I will agree with one point that was in that post though - men really do like it if you make an effort to look nice for them.  My hubby appreciates that most days when he gets home from work, I greet him at the door with hair/makeup done and a smile.  Anytime we go out I make sure I am wearing something he finds sexy.  This may sound a little too June Cleaver lol - but I love doing it for him because I know how much he appreciates it.  I know it is sometimes hard with work/kids and all the other stresses - we have 5 kids and I am a stay-at home mom, so I don't have a whole lot of spare time.  But it is important to me to look as good as I possibly can for my man.  Emphasis on the I.  I can't look like Paris Hilton and am so glad that my hubby doesn't want me to.   

I am not trying to restart an old argument.  That post just bugged me and I wanted to say something about it.  Maybe also let some of the ladies who are heavier than 120, and feeling badly about themselves because of it, know that not all men expect you to look like you did when you were 16 or to get plastic surgery to fix whatever they perceive is wrong with you.  I questioned myself and my body for a while after I found out my hubby was into porn, but I know I am attractive just the way I am - and I don't have to go under the knife or give up carbs to please men.   Neither do y'all.  :)  Roxy 

I also had problems taking the pill, so the only BC I used up until I married and we decided to have kids was condoms.  This is quite a long time ago (I am 38 and became sexually active at 17) and there weren't the options like the patch and shot (although in between baby 3 and 4 I tried the shot and also probs with that, so we have the total protection now lol - hubby got snipped after our youngest was born - he figured it was his turn to at least go through a little pain!).  I suppose I was lucky that I never did get pregnant before I wanted to, since condoms do have that slight failure rate.  The question of how often kids are planned has come up - so I'll add to the percentages here.  My husband and I planned ALL 5 of our kids.  We wanted and carefully planned each of them - made sure to plan each pregnancy so he would be home for the delivery (he is military).  We had 5 kids in about 9 years and I am so glad we did.  I wouldn't recommend it for everyone (first of all, not all women's bodies could handle that, but I must have strong peasant stock in my background lol, because I had pretty much zero problems in carrying them and had all of them without meds), but for us it was just right.  I have to say though - I do get annoyed with people when we are out and about and we always get the questions - Are they ALL YOURS??  Did you PLAN this??  Like it is incomprehinsible that a couple could choose to have a large family nowadays (we often also get asked if we are Catholic or Mormon lol, but we are neither).  Anyway - our kiddos were 100% planned.  :)  I understand many women and/or couples who choose not to have kids and respect them for their choice - but once I had my fist daughter, I just knew this was my passion in life - being a mom.  I feel so blessed.   

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of off the topic of this board.  I just saw y'all talking about it and wanted to add my little bit.   

I've read over the posts about cheating, both the SIL of someone as well as what you said Kimi.  It is good to see you realize you can't blame your husband for the choice you made to go outside the marriage.  I have to admit that I kind of understand though.  Several months ago when I found out about hubby's porn usage and the lies and all - it wasn't very long before I had thoughts of 'getting revenge'.  Maybe the only thing I did right when all this mess started was to talk to him about those feelings.  I told him flat out that I felt vulnerable to any other man who would flirt with me - that I had easily deflected that kind of thing in the past, but that I might fall into cheating as a way to get the revenge, but maybe even more important to reassure myself that I WAS in fact still attractive sexually to men.  It scared my hubby to hear that, because he knows I don't even flirt with other men.  So we both took measures to make sure it didn't happen, because we agreed before marrying that infidelity was a deal breaker (I have now made porn use one also, I won't go through that whole mess again).  I am glad I told him - I would hate to have brought about the end of my marriage for reasons of revenge or reassurance of my attractiveness.   

Kimi - since I am new here, I of course don't know much about your situation.  I wish I could help, but don't know how to.  You have my empathy and I hope you and your hubby can either find a way to heal and both of you thrive in your marriage or that one of you finds the courage to leave.  Or maybe I misread your last statment and y'all are happy and okay now, if so I apologize for my misunderstanding. 

For a while, y'all were discussing whether or not you should tell someone if you know their SO is cheating.  I think it depends on the relationship you have with the person being cheated on.  If it is someone I care very much for - I am most likely going to tell.  If the cheater is the person I care more for (say it is my brother and I don't know his gf or whatever very well), I would probably tell him to cut the crap out and be honest with his SO and get some counseling.  I guess it is really hard to know how I would handle it, since I have never been faced with the situation.  I don't think any of us can really give everyone absolute advice on this - one way or the other isn't always going to be correct for every person or what is going on.  One thing I can say is that if a friend or family member of mine knew unequivocally that my hubby was cheating, I would dang sure want them to tell me.  I would never 'shoot the messenger'.  I would know they had struggled with doing it and told me because they love me.  The only person getting shot would be hubby (not literally of course lol).   

Lynn - I am just reading on this board for the first time tonight.  I only joined here about a week ago.  I am sure there are people who have posted here often and well who will have good advice for you.  I just wanted to offer some support and what advice I can from my perspective.  I am 38 and hubby is almost 42.  We have been married almost 13 years.  For the most part it has been all I dreamed marriage would be (this is the first for both of us), with a little hiccup the last several months after I found out he was looking at porn (I asked for advice on the appropriate board and received support and help and things are looking great for us now), I only add that last part to say that while we have an incredibly strong marriage, sometimes problems still come up.  I don't want to be a hypocrite offering you advice and acting like all has been perfection here.  So anyway - my general feeling from reading your post is that he is not ready to commit to you and possibly never will be.  You mentioned having a couple of guys on the back-burner and I venture to guess that he does also (well girls not guys lol).  Your last sentence is poignant about that - there really shouldn't be any doubt at all.   I had 2 long-term (living together) relationships before I married.  I got engaged to both of them, but never quite got around to setting that marriage date - because I DID have doubts.  I married my husband 3 1/2 months after meeting him.  We both just KNEW it was right for us.   

I find it really telling that even after all this time he jokes about the reasons for y'all moving in together and also hasn't even said he loves you, even though you shared your feelings in a letter.  That must be hurtful.  I don't think there is a set time-line and you are right that all relationships are different, but just as an outside objective observer - it looks to me like you are enjoying each other's company, but are really just passing time, him more than you.  From the time I met my hubby and to this day almost 13 yrs later - we want to be with each other as much as possible and we both do all we can to make that happen - neither of us goes out without the other and even if we are just veggin in front of the TV - I'd rather be doing that WITH him than sitting at some bar talking to 'the girls' (or 'the guys').   

The final very telling thing I noticed was you said there are times when you can't reach him for several days.  That is probably more telling than anything else you said.  I hate glib books and the titles for those books and haven't read the one I am about to mention - but the title does pretty much describe the situation you are in IMO:  "Face it, he's just not that into you".  I noticed recently that there is also a book geared toward women titled "Face it, you're not that into him either" and that may also apply to you, since you mentioned having some back-burner guys.  I understand you love and care for him Lynn.   I hope you have enjoyed your time with him.  From what you have said though - this just doesn't appear to be a relationship that is going to be long-term.  It is entirely possible I have misread the situation and if so I hope y'all have a long and happy relationship.  I just wanted to give you some objective input (I know you kind of discount what your gf's say since they love you and will always take your side).  I am not really trying to take a side here - it just doesn't seem like y'all are a fit for marriage.  You strike me as a very intelligent, hard-working and savvy woman - I think you are going to be just fine no matter how things turn out with your bf.  Take care Lynn.  :)  Roxy 

Miss - this may 'technically' be normal as another poster said, but that doesn't make it right for you.  I am old enough to be your mom (38), but I understand and respect that even at your young age love is real and intense.  Your feelings are valid and I would never disrespect that.  I have an almost 15 yo daughter myself and that adds to my understanding (she has had the same bf for about 5 months now and she loves him and vice versa).  Anyway - I was glad to read that your bf said he would respect your wishes if you said you wouldn't want to do it, but I am really really concerned that he would ask you to do something like this in the first place.  I say this both as a mom of a teen and also a woman in love.  My husband is in the military and we have been through many long-term separations and of course he gets horny.  I can guarantee you it has never occurred to him to ask me to be with someone else on a cam so he could get off on that.  For us, and what is normal for us, our sexuality is only between the two of us.  I can tell you for sure it would just about kill him to see me even kiss another man, much less have sex.  I guess there are some people in this world who enjoy being a voyeur, but (and this is not from a moralistic or religious standpoint) I personally don't think that is normal in a loving, committed relationship.   

What do you do you asked.  Well I think you continue to tell your bf this is not something you are at all willing to do and talk with him about why he would be willing to let you share something so very special with another guy.  If he doesn't have an answer that satisfies you, then maybe you break up and move on.  I promise there are many more guys out there who would treasure you and never aks you to share yourself for their own gratification.  You deserve that hun.   

I am glad you came to this board to ask for advice/support and I hope if my words aren't helpful that someone's are.  Please please take care of yourself and continue to value yourself too much to do ANYTHING you feel is wrong for you.  Roxy 

Zsazsa - first and foremost your story touched my heart hun.  I have not been through everything you have, but have some understanding about the rape and the pain you are dealing with because of that.  I won't go into all the details of what I have been through, but just know I have also been the victim of a man's violence more than once.  Know this - please know this - what happened was NOT your fault in any way whatsoever. You are NOT crazy and in time it does get better - if you use that time in a positive way.  To me, and this is just my opinion, it sounds like you need more time with a counselor.  You are clearly still having problems because of the atrocities that were perpetrated on you and that is affecting your marriage negatively.  I think you need continue counseling and further that you and your hubby need to talk about this together with a professional.  I don't mean to say that he has a problem, but rather that talking about it together with a mediator may better help him understand your fears and concerns - so that eventually you can go back to the level of comfortable intimacy you once enjoyed.  It comes through very clearly in your words that you want that and I am sure your hubby does also and if he is as committed to the marriage as your words say he is, he will be willing to do whatever necessary to help make that happen.   

I cannot speak to your body image issues since you were diagnosed and treated for breast cancer because that has not happened to me.   All I can say about that is I hope the treatment was fully successful and I hope you get the 5 years cancer free and have a long and happy life.  I guess this is another issue that you need to address with a counselor, again part of which should be done with your husband.   My impression from your words is that your hubby loves and desires you very much regardless of what you have been through.   

Congrats on 23  years of marriage and 4 children!!  Congrats on coming through the adversity you have faced recently - you are a brave and strong woman!!  I want to be very helpful to you, but not sure how to be.  Know that someone has read your story and is hoping things will turn out well for you and your marriage.  Be safe and take care Zsazsa and please please continue to get counseling for what you have been through - if the first counselor you choose doesn't help, then keep trying.  Find someone who is right for you and your husband - I can tell you want to get better - so put the effort into it hun.  You deserve to find some peace as regards what that monster did to you and also about the illness that changed your body.  Roxy