Messages By: tselb2

Hello there Jetta and Karen.  So good to see you are doing well Karen.  Gosh, I really miss chattin' with you.  I remember the early days of our board here and boy, have we come a LLLOOOONNGGG way or what?!? :)  I think it is really sad when someone says that they are a good parent b/c of not spanking or imply that someone is a bad parent b/c they do.  I know, personally, there is SUCH a HUGE difference between spanking and abuse I just can't imagine someone NOT understanding it.  Although, after all the time I've spent here, I realize that is just the case. 

I won't go into all the hoopla of our home, but we do believe in spanking.  I know that not everyone does and that is quite okay.  I believe there are GREAT parents either way.  I also believe there are parents who shouldn't be parents either way.  Raising a child takes so much energy in so many avenues how can you possibly limit it to one aspect?  Just b/c I'm faithful in taking my children to church, does that mean parents who don't are bad?  Of course not.  Just b/c I don't allow my children to watch certain things on TV, does that mean parents who do are bad?  Of course not.  We all make the decisions we do based on what "we" believe is the best for them.  Now, on the other hand, as the previous poster said about her Mom being oblivious to her emotions through her Mom's treatment of her, that is a communication problem, not a spanking problem.  I, personally, have a GREAT communication relationship with my dh and children.  They boys have clearly expressed how they felt when being spanked, but likewise how they felt/feel when they are being disciplined period.  Bottom line is they pretty much don't like either but understand the consequence came as a result of their choices.  Too, if the discipline does not bring positive, lasting, and definite results, it is just simply not worth it to me. 

Hope everyone has a GREAT Thursday.  Jetta and Karen, you better hang in there girls or Scooby will be finding you!!!!  :) 

tselb2 

Precisely my point in so many ways.  It doesn't take getting a "spanking" to be considered abusive.  I know spanking, the way we used it, was not abusive.  And just because you DON'T spank doesn't make you a GREAT parent.  That is terrible about watching your brother get beat, but the sad thing is, I can completely relate.  I watched my brother get hit with a flyswatter one time so many times to the point that his legs collapsed at his knees.  The only reason he didn't fall to the floor was because my Mom had a hold of his arm, but his little legs bent at the knees b/c he couldn't stand anymore.  He was only about 7.  Now, I have a 7 yo and couldn't imagine doing that to him anymore than I could imagine locking him in a closet, boiling his little fingers, or pulling him around by his hair.   I know/knew my children well enough to know that spanking my oldest would be WAY more hurtful to his little spirit than spanking my second who was QUITE the little one to raise.  He is doing really well now, but I definitely attribute it to the way he has been raised thus far.  He was disciplined VERY strictly, but then on the other hand, I spent QUITE a bit of time just holding him on the rocker b/c it was what he needed at the time.  He is very emotional as well, but not quite the same way as my oldest.  My third is just a firecracker.  He has SUCH a will, but is really loving as well.  You can't get three loving little men from being abusive to them.  I don't care how you figure it.  I knew from the time I was very little that I would learn from the mistakes my parents made.  I, too, have forgiven both of them for their decisions.  My Mom passed away in May of 200 and my Dad in October of 2001.  Forgiveness, to me, is not only a requirement from God, but a soul saver.  Take care and you're very welcome for listening.  ;) 

tselb2 

I guess it never ceases to amaze me how we equate "spanking" with "abuse".  I have spanked all three of my children.  None of them have EVER been abused.  I know spanking can lead to physical abuse, but speaking can lead to verbal abuse.  Should we all stop speaking? 

Abuse is a horrible thing, whether it be physical, mental, sexual, or verbal.  Some have endured all forms and it is hideous when inflicted by anyone much less a parent.  I also find it interesting that so many people believe spanking is done when angry.  I have yet to ever spank from anger.  When I get angry, I mean REALLY angry, I generally go to a room or outside to gather myself.  Regardless of where I am or who I'm around, I just get away.  But since I don't get angry easy or often, I don't have to really worry about it.  Now, when my children were warned of a spanking as a result of a behavior and the spanking was carried out, anger was not necessary simply b/c I carried out what I told them would happen.  Just like I don't get angry when I revoke privileges, make them sit and think, or any other consequence.  I just don't understand it.  I have seen people hit their children out of anger, but that is not spanking, that is abuse. 

Your home is your home.  If you don't agree with spanking, ask them in an adult conversation to please refrain from spanking their child in your home.  You can let them know you believe it is a bad influence on your child (in your opinion) so please choose other forms of discipline.  I do not allow anyone to curse, smoke, or speak meanly in our home b/c it is a bad influence on our children.  If people don't like it, they don't have to come over.  Quite simple to me. 

Quite frankly, if they are there only 3-4 hours and the child has been "spanked" THAT many times, they are not spanking.  I'm not sure why the child has to be disciplined that many times if the form of discipline is effective.  They CLEARLY need another form of teaching if this is the case.  ALL forms of discipline should have positive, definite, lasting results.  If they are spanking THAT many times, the child is not getting it.  Now, if he has special needs, they need to guide him/her more instead of spanking.  Spanking should be a consequence that is CLEARLY understood, carried out, and then resume with normal activity as with any consequence.  It sounds to me that the child is just being smacked for whatever and no lesson is learned.   Spanking, IMO, will not be against the law b/c it has been effective for too long when used properly.  There are no laws protecting us from consequences of wrong choices (i.e. speeding ticket when speeding).  Child abuse IS against the law in the US.  It is a hard crime to convict on b/c it is sometimes difficult to see all the damage being done when you are not around.  And yes, there other ways to discipline, but not always as effective in that time frame.  If you don't know the line between spanking and abuse, I would strongly suggest you not spank as well.  For us, it is VERY clear where the line is and even my children could share that with you. 

Take care, 

Tselb2 

"Where is the line  between spanking and abuse then" 

I gathered from this statement, you were unsure of the line.  So sorry for the misinterpretation. 

They are CLEARLY not spanking him, they are abusing him.  Not sure why, but that is what I would call it.  They should, at this point, teach him boundaries by example.  If he does not learn them, and only when he understands them should they enforce any kind of consequence.  Simply pushing your son the first time he should have been spoken to as well as the door scenario. 

I understand you believe spanking is child abuse, but in my home and many other people's, for that matter, it is clearly not.  Spanking is an effective form of discipline when used properly.  If not used properly, it can no longer be called spanking, but abuse.  I believe every child should grow up in an environment free of smacks, abuse and violence as well.  None of these tie into a spanking at all.  As I've said, I've spanked my children and they are CLEARLY not abused.  They are CLEARLY loved, respected, and awesome, awesome young men.  My children have many rights in life, but taking a consequence for a wrong choice is not a right, it is, in fact, a wrong.  They need to be taught that with wrong choices, consequences are inevitable. 

Tselb2 

First of all, locking a child in his/her room is not corporal punishment. 

Second, the things you've listed above have nothing to do with a spanking, they are forms of abuse.  Spanking is a form of discipline, abuse is not.  Though Dr. Phil does not agree with spanking, when he had the family on that disagreed with him, he really had very little to rebuke them.  I understand an opinion that spanking is not for everyone, but as long as you are not abusing your child, you should take the necessary steps to help your child understand right from wrong.  You must always have positive, definite, and lasting results.  The fact that you have an angry emoticon is rather interesting to me.  Are you angry?  To be honest with you, anger is a secondary emotion to hurt.  Perhaps you feel hurt for the kids who are being abused?  How many children do you have? 

Spanking does not, in fact, teach a child that violence is the right way to get what one wants.  None of my children believe that and they have all been spanked.  You are right in saying that violence is never justified.  Spanking, IMO, will never be illegal everywhere.  That seems a bit far fetched. 

Have a GREAT Wednesday, 

Tselb2 

I believe the biggest problem with overprotective parents is that the child never learns to make decisions and is thus, unable to live on their own or will forever second guess their decisions.  

I am a Mom of three boys.  They are 11, 9, and 7.  My oldest has freedoms the other two don't simply b/c he has had more life experience and has shown his responsibilities to be honorable.  My 9 yo has special needs, but is still allowed to ride his bike around the neighborhood b/c he has been taught (by me and Dad) how to do it honorably and has shown to be responsible.  I believe taking these freedoms away would cause them to second guess their independence.  Plus, I will not be here for the rest of their lives (I believe at this point) so if I don't empower them, who will?  I don't want them learning from the world, so I believe it is my job as their Mom.  They have never been in daycare, as well, b/c I didn't want someone else spending more time with them than myself (this is my choice, of course, not meant to offend anyone reading).  I believe if we teach our children right from wrong, when they get to that critical moment in life, they will have the knowledge to make a good choice.  If they choose otherwise, it is their consequence to suffer, not mine.  All three of my boys have been given consequence as a result of poor judgment, so they understand that consequences surely follow poor judgment. 

Tselb2 

however, it does say in the Word that homosexuals shall not enter the gates of Heaven (1 Cor 6:9-10).  Along with this it does say that "other offenses" will not allow you in either.  That is why repentence is necessary.  However, repentence is an active verb.  The act of it means you will, with God's help, turn away from the sin.  I will not judge any other human, but I will speak the truth.  I don't "hide behind hate the sin, love the sinner", I abide by it.  Jesus did it, so should I.  We welcome everyone in our church b/c just as well people don't need a doctor, spiritually unwell people need God.  We shouldn't turn anyone away.  I have read a couple times that if "God doesn't want me homosexual, why is it so hard to turn away from?".  Well, God doesn't want us to sin, but it sure is tempting and easy enough.  It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can turn away from these things.  When the Bible says that if we ask, it shall be given, don't forget the part that says according to His Will.  I believe we forget about our free will and get caught up in that God should just "fix us".  That won't happen as easy as it sounds.  Seek His will for you and in seeking the kingdom of God, you will find your answers.  God bless. 

Tselb2 

I'm a christian, but I don't believe I know everything about the Bible.  So, are you saying that you believe being gay is a sin?  Tell me where it says no matter what God will forgive you.  That isn't what mine says, but then again, I don't know everything there is to know about it.  Mine says that I have to accept Jesus Christ as my savior and repent for my sins in order to be forgiven.  I do practice forgiveness, but just b/c you're gay doesn't mean "I" have to forgive you for anything.  That is between you and God.  God does, indeed, love all His children.  But, He also knows many will deny Him and His ways.  That hurts Him deeply.  He does want us to be happy, but our happiness is not to sacrifice His will for us.  I would appreciate you citing where it is though that God will forgive us no matter what.  Thanks. 

tselb2 

I am a Christian, not a Paulian.  I read the entire Bible, not just parts of it.  Of course, Jesus would say nothing about gays not entering heaven, you said that was not "invented" until the 18th century.  And I believe in "Loving God with your whole heart. . ." you will in turn follow his divine direction.  So, are you saying that repentence is not necessary? 

I'm using the NIV, but the King James has it as well when the KJ uses fornication, it is referring to the sexual act between two people who are not married.  Since the Bible refers to a marriage as being between a man and a woman, this act is simply not possible.  Now, I understand there are people who simply live together with others of the same sex and do not perform any sexual act, but that is not the case for the majority. 

Why should "catamite" be condemned?  According to your ideas, as long as they "Love God with their whole heart. . ." they will get eternal life.  Gosh, I could do just about anything and get eternal life?  Ya, I don't think so. 

I believe, as well (though you may call me a Genisisian) that God created Adam and saw that nothing was fit for his companion other than the creation of a woman has GREAT significance. 

Who is bickering?  I'm certainly not.  I just am so sorry that people are deceived by the ways of satan.  It is very easy to fall victim to  his ways.  I, on the other hand, am FAR from being a victim.  Yet more a victor.  Jesus Christ allows this for me.  And to answer your last question, I'm CLEARLY a Christian. 

tselb2