Message Boards
Messages By: tina_socal
|
January 18, 2007, 1:38 am PST
 Funny how when people start using religious dogma to make a case against trans- and intersex people living the lives they know are right for them, they always seem to ignore this scripture (emphasis added)- galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Those who claim that the bible says that rigidly adhering to one gender role or another based on what is in your pants is a prerequisite for being one with Christ are flat out wrong. Much of what is considered to be "natural" about sex and gender classification is entirely socially constructed and not "natural" at all...the case of intersexed people like the kid on todays show shows just how simplistic and antiquated a binary model of biological sex differentiation based on genitalia is... Anyone over the age of 45 or so should remember a time when the same kind of "it's nature and God supports it" arguments were used to justify racial segregation and laws against interracial dating and marriage, and before that notions that skin color and other ethnically based physical characteristics could be used to determine if a person was more likely to be a criminal or exhibit other antisocial tendencies...not to mention travesties like the Dred Scott decision...now we know that the whole concept of "races" is in many ways complete malarkey and not science at all; and where racial classification was once considered an indispensible and highly informative part of one's legal identification, it is now seen as patently racist and is in most cases illegal to use for the purposes of discrimination in housing, employment, etc... The old pre-genetics and DNA testing notions of sexual differentiation based on looking at babies crotches are now undergoing the same process that the old pseudo-scientific notions about race have undergone in the last few decades, and 50-100 years from now many of the ideas about sex and gender that are now assumed to be "fact" will seem just as absurd and ignorant as 19th century and earlier notions about race do now. |
|
|
January 19, 2007, 12:58 am PST
Quote From: tameko I think it is so unfair for people of color to constantly be compared to gay people, lesbians, transgenders and even animals. I am sick of it ----------it is offensive.
If I ran into "HIM" CAMERON on the street I would tell HIM SO! I am not gay, I am not transgender, I am not a lesbian ---------I am a person of color and that is nothing like being gay, transgender, lesbians etc.
hell we have even been compared to animals! enough of this denigration. The obvious question would have to be: If you aren't gay, or transgendered, or lesbian- how do you know what that is like, enough to say that being LGBT is "nothing like" being a person of color? What gives you the right to speak for groups that you are not a member of? I hear this argument made all the time when anyone compares the civil rights issues of LGBT people to any similarities with the civil rights issues faced by "people of color"...and the argument is always the same- that people who aren't POC have no right to make any comparison if they aren't people of color...but these same people of color will turn around and claim to be able to understand exactly what being LGBT or white is all about, even while admitting that they aren't gay or transgendered or white. If a non-POC person can't ever know what being a POC is like, then why should anyone applying the same logic think that non-gay or TG POC could ever know what being gay or TG is like? There are a number of obvious paralells between the civil rights struggles of both populations, and anyone who truly desires inclusivity and the finding of common ground among human beings will recognize them- legal harrassment like marriage and adoption restrictions based on twisted interpretations of scripture and outright bigotry, rampant housing and job discrimination, constant threats of lethal violence for being a member of a marginalized class... LGBT people are compared to animals all the time as well when the subject of marriage rights come up- how many of us have heard the argument that " if we let gays marry each other then before you know it people will be able to marry their dogs"? That's one similarity between being a POC and being LGBT right there- being DEHUMANIZED and treated like an animal who doesn't deserve basic human rights or respect...pretty basic stuff, and it's hard to have much respect for someone who refuses to acknowledge that anyone but people just like them can know what it's like to be treated that way. No, they are not *exactly* the same experience, but there are enough similarities that people who see human beings as human beings and not as members of separate groups locked in a struggle for dominance can easily understand the paralells. If you truly desire real equality for all people, you need to stop trying to make the case that your brand of oppression is somehow more real or entitles you to more respect than some other group, and that your experiences give you the ability to say what being LGBT or non-POC is like while you chastise anyone else who even makes a simple comparison. If all you look for is differences, that is all you'll see...and it is exactly that desire to attribute importance to differences among people instead of looking for similarities that allowed the oppression of POC to be rationalized in the first place...it wasn't people saying that POC were just like anyone else who enslaved and oppressed them, it was people who went out of their way to use differences to make the case that they weren't the same, and therefore weren't entitled to the same treatment under the law. |
|
|
January 19, 2007, 2:11 pm PST
I should know better than to try to cite case law straight out of my head- the decision was Loving v. Virginia and was handed down in 1967- just in case anyone wants to look it up. |
|
|
January 19, 2007, 3:57 pm PST
Quote From: tammi84 Well I had replied to this yesterday but for some reason it didn't post. Let me try again. First I want to thank you for conversing with me on this very delicate topic in a respectful & calm way. I've seen many posts on here where discussion is impossible because of name calling and insults etc. I think it is great that we can have an actual discussion.
One thing we can both agree on is that every person regardless of gender, race, etc. is very precious and very valuable. I do accept how a person says they feel and the struggle & daily heartbreak faced in a situation such as what we have been discussing. I've given a lot of thought to where it is we don't agree and I think it comes down to the defining of truth. Basically what is being said is that if a person feels and/or believes something to be a fact then I/society are sup'd to accept it as such or be considered 'intolerant'. An example is back to a baby being born as a boy, getting a little older, and then because of feeling more like a girl now wants to be accepted as one. Now we must change the definition of a girl based on this feeling and address this boy as a she regardless of appearances. That is a confusion of truth. The person wants to be a girl... feels like a girl.... but truth is, no matter if they dress like one, change their name as one, etc.... they are still a boy. Medically that fact will always follow medical records.
If a person is going to commit suicide because of wanting to be seen differently, I would have to say they need counseling to help them cope. Regardless of any issue we are talking about. I'd also say that if a person were going to take their life because of 1 part of who they are - then maybe they are giving too much focus to that 1 area. Gender is not the only thing that defines a person. A person is made of up personality, gifts & talents, temperment, and so much more. Maybe someone feeling so low and so bad about themselves needs to have more love & support in their lives to help them also love themselves as they are in the moment.
Also if a person is having daily struggles, low self-esteem, family/friend conflicts, depression, etc. then I don't think the answer is to put them out in public in a way that will create even more negative reactions, comments, looks, etc. or to put them at the center of controversy whether they ask to be put there or not. I also don't think the answer lies in changing truths based on feelings. People look and see a boy dressed like a girl. Some people might say "oh she is so beautiful". Most people will not. Why? Because it's a boy in a dress, with a wig, falsies, etc. and trying to look like a girl.... but they aren't one. That's just the truth. No matter how bad they wish they were one, dressing like one does not make it so.
Could you imagine if all our laws etc. were based only on feelings? If I felt it was OK to murder, does that make it OK?
Let me make sure I'm very clear on where I stand. God loves each and every person. Every one. As a Christian, I value & respect human life. My heart goes out to anyone struggling with any issues regardless if they are of this nature or any other. I wish we all didn't have to face difficulties in life as we do. But no matter how much I empathize with situations, there are times when truth & facts needs to over-ride my feelings. My feelings can change but truth should stay the same. I can't change truths based on each individuals feelings. Does that make sense to you? "Now we must change the definition of a girl based onthis feeling and address this boy as a she regardless of appearances. That is a confusion of truth. The person wants to be a girl... feelslike a girl.... but truth is, no matter if they dress like one, changetheir name as one, etc.... they are still a boy. Medically that factwill always follow medical records. " With all due respect, the definitions you refer to are not scientific "truth", they are based on philosophy and religion... there are a number of legal cases involving trans- and intersexed people where the law is vague as to definition of male/female and in some cases the law grossly contradicts itself. Even scientists don't presume to classify all living beings as male or female, and there are individual humans who simply cannot be accurately classified as 100% male or female using accepeted legal OR scientific criteria, because those criteria are contradictory by nature. Anyone who studies biology knows that nature simply does not only create organisms that are either male or female...many plants and animals are by nature hermaphroditic or chimeras, and not because they are defective males or females; because that is how nature made them and how they are meant to be. The idea that human beings are exempt from this law of nature is not scientific at all, it is just wishful thinking. It's amusing that people will latch on to one factor like genitalia to prove this socially constructed binary sex paradigm as "fact", and when that doesn't apply to all cases, they seek out another factor like genetics to try to shore it up again, but are left up a creek when genetics doesn't help their case either...and completely fail to realize that the more factors they introduce, the more it proves that those factors are arbitrarily chosen as being important and that the whole binary paradigm is fatally flawed and simplistic. "Could you imagine if all our laws etc. were based only on feelings? If I felt it was OK to murder, does that make it OK? " Many of the laws surrounding civil rights and LGBT people ARE based on feelings, as is the idea that all human beings by nature MUST be classified as male or female and there are no overlaps possible. In fact pretty much all laws are based on feelings; if someone didn't feel that something needed to be regulated, there wouldn't be a law. That's the problem- a bunch of people assume that because their feelings are the most popular that that automatically makes them "truth" and "fact", and then use the power of that majority to impose their feelings on everyone else. |
|
|
January 21, 2007, 3:03 am PST
Quote From: markangeloc The question on your pole and the 3 choices are confusing. First hand, Gender identity is something you are born with. But your doctor chooses what will appear on your birth certificate based on your physical sex appearance, not on your gender.
Gender and sex are two different things. One cannot base your gender on your sex. This means, that if the doctor sees you have a penis, he automatically calls you a boy. Has he seen your inner make up. Does this boy have testicles or ovaries. Does this boy, have a male brain or a female brain.
I know it sounds bizzarre and confusing, but its facts. There are over 5 millions transsexuals in the world and the numbers are climbing. We can no longer go by what we see. It is more complex than meets the eye.
It is also very intersting and worth learning before one messes a life up. Society is to use to simplifying things and putting them in a box. Well guess what its not that easy.
Mark Angelo the way the poll is worded is reminiscent of the old "when did you stop beating your wife?" paradox... As you point out, you are born with an innate gender ID and cannot choose to change it. But the sex classification that is applied to you is not innate, it is chosen by a doctor by using some very antiquated and simplistic criteria that most importantly do NOT take your innate gender ID into account. If this sex ID does not match your gender ID, rather than listen to you and change the sex ID to match , the prevailing response from society and medical professionals has usually been to tell you that you are crazy and try to force you to accept the sex ID. What is especially telling is that even in cases where a genetic or otherwise biological intersex condition can be shown in a person with this sex/gender incongruence, many people are STILL coerced to accept the sex ID, often by methods that include the same type of genital reassignment surgery sought by adult transsexuals...who very often are found to have intersex conditions once a doctor looks beyond their genitals for clues. The only difference seems to be that if you are an adult and actually want genital reassignment surgery, people don't want you to have it because "God doesn't make mistakes"...but if you are an intersexed baby and can't consent to it, it is called "corrective"surgery...so whose mistake are they correcting? But back to the wordings on the Dr.Phil site- the other one I have a big problem with is where it says- "Imagine waking up one morning and realizing that you’ve been living inthe wrong body. That’s what Dr. Phil’s first guest says happened to her." This gives the erroneous impression that the realization that one is transgendered happens in an instant, that you just wake up at some point and it is a big surprise...when many if not most transgendered people say that they have always known for as long as they can remember...just as Cameron is quoted saying elsewhere on the site- "I always felt like I have always been a male trapped in a female’s body." The former description is obviously an attempt to simplify the matter into terms that the uninitiated might be able to grasp easier...but that is a major part of the problem faced by gender variant people- the oversimplification of these matters at the expense of the people most affected by them, just so people who don't know and don't really care to know what they are about in any detail can pretend to be informed and understand them. Understanding and defining sex and gender and how they can be incongruent isn't easy, and it isn't simple and probably never will be...and to pretend that it can be made so does a dissevice to trans- and intersex people with whether it is doctors, clergy, politicians/legislators, or TV talk shows that do it. |
|
|
October 30, 2008, 1:58 am PDT
On today's show he made it clear that he was against HRT and other medical interventions for young kids who express gender incongruity... but in the case of the intersex kids mentioned in passing during today's show who were born with ambiguous genitalia and chromosomes, they are routinely subjected to HRT and surgery to "correct" their natural born bodies even when there is no medical necessity to do so. And what's worse is that it is religious types like Focus on the Family and churches that most adamantly promote this kind of treatment and insist that it is necessary for purely social reasons, even though they repeat the mantra over and over that "God doesn't make mistakes"...when they are talking about TG's. The massive hypocrisy is that they only promote genital surgery and HRT when the person getting surgery and hormones is too young to give consent or express their inner sense of gender- when an older child or adult ASKS for help to align their body with their innate gender ID, these pharisees are suddenly against the exact same treatment as being some kind of affront to God's will....even in cases where a surgical birth "correction" was done and turns out that the male or female ID assigned to the kid was wrong. The David Reimer case was mentioned today, and the protocols that the FOF guy decried were actually developed not in the treatment of TG kids, but in the treatment of IS kids. Reimer was neither, but the "knowledge" allegedly gained through the systematic butchering of IS kids to "normalize" them was used to justify forcing Reimer into a female gender role after a botched circumcision, which in case anyone has forgotten is the deliberate mutilation of normal, healthy male genitalia (where have I heard that before?). It was a classic case of doctors playing God, and ignoring someone's desperate pleas to be allowed to live as his innate gender identity until he was driven to suicide (all because John Money didn't want to admit that his entire 'nurture only' gender ID hypothesis was wrong) . So I would like to hear Dr. Phil's stand on the issue of HRT and surgery given to infants and prepubescent children with intersex conditions without their consent or even asking them whether they feel like a boy or a girl...seems to me that if he adamantly opposes it for transgender kids, to have any consistency he would have to oppose it for those IS kids who can live without it too. |
|
|
October 30, 2008, 2:31 am PDT
Quote From: cindib63 I don't know weather a child really can decide these things at a young age, but what I do know, is that if this child continues to dress as a girl, when he is a boy, he will be teased and ridiculed all his young life. I believe, that even if it ends up that the young man still wants to be a woman when he is an adult, then whatever. But right now, he needs to be the "boy" that he was born as. Stand by him at home, let him know that he is wonderfull no matter what he feels inside, but, in public he needs to dress socially acceptable. I wanted to wear skimpy shorts and short shirts when I was young, but that was not allowed. It did not change that I wanted to, and sometimes wore them at home, but I sure didn't show up at school or church dressed like that.... I think it is totally rediculous tha a parent would knowingly support and promote a child to dress in a way that will end up humiliating and embarassing him or her. When someone is trying to hide their inner sense of being a different gender than the one they are expected to act like based on their physical bodies, they still get ridiculed and harassed for being different, because one's internal sense of gender is so pervasive that it can't be hidden or overcome through sheer force of will. Even if they manage to create a persona that they think "reads" as normal for their physical sex, it is often a crude caricature that is no more believable than that of an over the top drag queen...and it isn't just coincidence that so many MtoF transsexuals go into hypermasculine endeavors like military special forces, police work, athletics, etc...even so, people will always get a sense that the person is hiding something, and this wreaks havoc on their personal and professional lives and living that lie often drives them to suicide. The humiliation and shame felt by TG and IS kids forced to live a role that doesn't fit who they are is no different than the shame and humiliation that would be felt by any "normal" boy forced to go to school in a dress and act like a girl, so it is a fallacy to think that "making" them act like their birth sex will prevent them from being harassed or ridiculed for who they are, it doesn't, even when they aren't "out" as TG- people will know that something is up.. |
|
|
October 30, 2008, 12:09 pm PDT
Quote From: diamrem The true problem society has with "gender confusion" is the same problem that society has always had with gender roles, identity, orientation, etc..., one where the belief is that the issue is black or white. I believe that gender exists as a broad spectrum. Yet society tries to force individuals to chose one side or the other, as if they exist as 2 completely seperate entities. Every individual has stereotypical masculine and femine aspects of their personality. And let me highlight the word stereotypical. When the 8 year old child on this episode was asked when he knew he was really a she, she said it was when she hated boys clothes and saw a pair of girls sparkly purple pants she wanted, then she wanted to dance like a girl. So if this child was raised in a society where males and females dressed the same, and shared the same rolls in society, would it have even occured to them to question their gender? I am so frustrated by this world we live in, where you have to fit the stereotype of your gender to be accepted. I think "gender confusion" is a problem created by a society that wants everyone to fit into their appropriate box. Just because a child is questioning those unnatural bounderies imposed by society does not me they are confused about their identity. They are just confused with what label they should select from society's very limited options of labels that we are allowed. To me it is like being multi racial but having to chose only one to identify as. Your assessment is right on- the whole notion that there are only two diametrically opposite sexes is scientifically inaccurate and as antiquated as old notions that all people can be scientifically categotized into a less than a handful of "races". Even Jesus spoke of "eunuchs which were so born from their mother's womb"...he had no issue with and did not condemn those who fell outside the bounds of what is considered a "normal" man or woman, he specifically said that they have the same right to the kingdom of heaven as anyone else. He also wore what amounts to unisex clothing, at least in every depiction I have ever seen of him. Two other bits of scripture that never seem to get any attention from those who would use the Bible against gender non-conforming people- So God created humanity in God's own image, in the image of God, God created humanity; male and female God created them. -- Genesis 1:27 If both male and female are created in God's image, then God must be in essence either genderless, or a combination of the two; an androgyne... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -- Galatians 3:28
Seems pretty clear to me that those who insist that the Bible demands strict adherance to societal gender norms are at best cherry picking scriture, and at worst wholly ignoring its intent. |
|
|
October 30, 2008, 12:42 pm PDT
Quote From: kaylamc4 I totally agree! I actually am a girl who grew up with, boy toys, boy clothes, boy hobbies, boy haircut (which i did to myself when i was 5) I had so much fun and my parents never tried to guide me in any way. I grew up just perfectly fine i do not want to be a boy. So obviously, parents have nothing to do with it!! I never had any thoughts of being a boy, i was just perfectly happy. It definetely has to do with biology and the mind. There are such things as a tom boy (girl who acts like a guy) but is pefectly straight and happy with their lives. On the other hand there are transgenders obviously who just do not feel that there genitals match and actually, in their mind, want to be the opposite. Everyone should become way more clear of this, its not any ones fault. It's just the way they were made. People who disagree should definetely are just very closed minded and ignorant!! For the most part, girls who are considered "tomboys" are seen as innocently expressing who they are, and there is little in the way of negative connotations associted with being one. Contrast that with boys who would be the male equivalent- rather than getting labeled with an equally inoffensive and non-judgmental term, boys who express "feminine" behaviors are called "sissies", and even when they are far too young to even be thinking about sex or sexual preferences, they are automatically suspected of being gay and there is an immense societal pressure exerted on them to stop it and "act like a man". Note also that whenever transsexualism is discussed, by far the majority of the negativity is directed towards MtoF people, and FtoM's hardly get mentioned at all. There is quite obviously an underlying misogyny at work here- when a biological girl wants to "act like a boy" it reinforces the idea that being male or acting like one is a superior state that anyone would rationally desire and emulate...but when a boy "acts like a girl", it is treated as something that no rational male would do, and he is immediately treated as defective and disturbed. Seeing as how so many religionists latch onto what they percieve as biblical support for the idea that women are inferior, it is no surprise that they would treat a boy emulating even the positive aspects of femininity as being wrong, "confused", etc. |
|
|
October 30, 2008, 2:23 pm PDT
Quote From: txmommy2boys 2 words FREE WILL! Let us not forget that GOD created us with free will. He did not want us to be like robots and worship Him He wanted us to do it on our own. This means that satan will test us and as humans we will react and do as we chose. Some of us with testing will put more distance between ourselves and God and others will draw closer to Him. We as parents have to teach our children the ways of the Bible. Yes, we will be tested through our children and it is our responsibility to react approriatly. God indeed does NOT make mistakes, and when kids feel that way it is just satan getting into their heads and trying to test our faith. It is our mistake for saying that "God doesn't make mistakes, so if God created this child it must be ok that he/she is like this". When children are like this it is not how God created them. They are created with a blank slate so to speak, it is our job as parents to guide them in such a way that they can keep that slate as blemish free as possible. He didn't put in their heads that they are going to want to be the opposite sex. And by saying that God doesn't make mistakes so it must be ok they are like this where does that leave serial killers, rapist and child molesters? Are you also saying that since God doesn't make mistakes and that a serial killer, rapist and child molester is the way he is it must be ok? Of course you don't think it's ok for any of those people to be that way. Yes I do realize that transgender isn't the same as any of those I listed but it does have the same concept on how we are and whether or not it is how we are created. And as for statistics of children whose parents let them live out their fantasies of being the opposite sex I haven't researched any of that. That is something that could really go both ways as far as the childs depression goes. But I do not agree with parents letting their children do this. Transgender is something that is not completly accepted with open arms in society, they will be made fun of, beat up, hold them back from future dreams and aspirations etc. Although there are communities of people like this that can provide support but it is harder for children to find such a thing. By parents letting their children do this they are only subjecting them to some major problems that will be attached to such a thing and even then they still have to deal with all the pain that comes along with it. Now how is that going to help a child and keep them going? They will feel just as lonely and unaccepted as they would by parents not letting them do what they think they want to do. That's where we as parents have to step up and guide them carefully in the right direction (note carefully and not forcefully cause that will only cause more rebellion). You say that "When children are like this it is not how God created them....He didn't put in their heads that they are going to want
to be the opposite sex." Really? You cannot point to any factual evidence to prove this either way, yet you state it as unqualified fact. Do you love your kids? I'm sure you would say yes, but what we call "love" is nothing but feelings. Who are you to dismiss the sincere feelings of others as being the work of Satan, while expecting your feelings you describe as "love" to be respected as good and decent and real? What ever happened to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? |
|
