Messages By: tulseyjoe

I did a Yahoo.com search on the "priest,"  David Kyle Foster, who was on today's show; and found that he has a so-called "ex-gay" testimony on Exodus International's website at http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality_11.shtml  

Dr. Phil does have a link ot Foster's own website, too. After reading Foster's testimony, I found that what I got from Foster talking today backed up what I thought was true. Foster was NEVER homosexual in the first place. Because he did not get the right kind of natural affection from his own father who was a pastor, Foster looked for love and acceptance from other men. One of the many sins listed in Romans Chapter One is the sin of "being without natural affection."  

Exodus International thrives on the testimonies of those who grew up in abnormal home-life situations where the Bible-thumpers' stereo-typical ideas are promoted.  

Many of those in charge of Exodus International associated ministries are people who have always been exclusively heterosexual in their sexual orientation. Bob Davies, the now retired CEO of Exodus International claimed to be a homosexual because in early puberty he was turned on sexually by some pictures of naked men. In his sort-of biography, "Overcoming Homosexuality," Davies mentions that in a chapter about his early years; but, when he discusses himself during his 20s, he states that he had an addiction to heterosexual pornography.  And that addiction started about the same time that he saw the naked men, except in this case it was naked women. Very interesting that being turned on by pictures of naked men made him a homosexual; but, the naked women did not make him a heterosexual nor a bisexual. 

The truth about Davies is that he never experienced a physiological sexual attraction toward another live human male in all of his life. But, he did married a woman with whom he fell in love (sexual attraction there of course) when he was a young adult and was still married to her when he retired. Davies was the CEO when John Paulk was caught in that gay bar in September 2000 as mentioned on the TV show today. The still-gay Christian man, Justin, did not mention Paulk on the show nor the actual date but that was to whom he was referring. John Paulk was the President of the Exodus Board, while Davis was running the organization; also, Paulk was the "Human Sexuality Expert" for PhD James Dobson's Focus On the Family at that time also.  

Paulk had tried to claim that his marrying an ex-lesbian made him a heterosexual. In fact, Paulk and his wife were in a lot of Newspaper ads promoting "PFOX" and the claim that homosexuals could change many months before that. PFOX - meaning Parents and Friends Of eX-gays- was supposedly created by those who are against PFLAG - Parents, Family/Friends of Lesbians And Gays." I used to be a PFLAG member. 

"godin44" posted: All translations of the Holy Bible state that homosexuality is a sin. The KJV, NIV and NAS translations are word for word translations. This means they were translated from the original Hebrew and Greek texts. You are looking for an "out" for your sin., which is human nature. No one is sinless, except Jesus. But we are told to confess our sins and give them to God. When your sin becomes a lifestyle, your are not living in the way God has asked us to: Galations chapter 5 says... 

No, you are quite wrong about word for word English translations of the Bible! If you have copies of the original texts (the very same ones those translators used), and you can read Hebrew and Greek, you will see that none of them are literal "word-for-word" translations. In fact, word-for-word translations are and would be very confusing. When the KJV translated "kodesh" as "sodomite," when the word "kodesh" literally meant "holy," it was not a word-for-word translation; it was a mis-interpretation. "Kodesh" as a verb means to "be or make holy." As a noun, it means a "holy" person, place, or thing. In every place the KJV coined word "sodomite" appears, the context has absolutely no connection with Sodom nor the residents of Sodom; in each instance the religion is always that of the people who lived in the Country of Canaan which was to the west of the Jordan River. Sodom was not in Canaan, it was one of the cities in the Jordan Plain, to the east of the River. We call the Jordan Plain country just Jordan in modern times. 

Oh, a person's sin can be come a lifestyle; but, homosexuality, aka homosexual orientation, is NOT a lifestyle. One can choose a lifestyle; but, one cannot choose one's sexual orienation.  

Attempting to confess one's sexual orientation as sin is equal to me attempting to confess that I have green eyes because neither my parents nor my siblings have/had green eyes. One is born with one's sexual orientation already determined by God just as one's eye color is determined before birth, too. 

Or more dramatically, attempting to confess, as sin, one's sexual orientation is like confessing one's sin of being left-handed instead of right-handed. Our word "sinister" comes from the Latin word for "left" and people who were left-handed used to be told that they were that way because either the devil made them left handed or they were in rebellion against God because they were using their left hands instead of their right hands.  

As a Believer in Jesus the Christ, I do not self-identify by the Syrian Greek-speaking pagan created hateful epithet, "Christian," when I refer to the "Old Testament" which Jesus himself called the "Old Covenant," I am referring to the writings which the Jews consider to be their Scripture.  

All of The Jewish writings written before 30 AD were referred to as the Old Covenant by Jesus himself. He also referred to the 1st 5 books, traditionally called the books of Moses by many, as the "Law."  

In a way, the "Law" was the same as the Old "Covenant." For those who wish to be believers in Jesus the Christ, they are not required to obey the Pre-Jesus Covenant-Law. But, Jesus said that those who wished to live by the LAW given before he came would be judged by that LAW. He did not do away with that LAW; but, his new Covenant-Law, aka New Testament (not the Bible Collection, but, his commands) was a higher LAW which made the Jewish Law not important for His Followers.  

Christians, especially those who think homosexuality is a sin and say "Because My Bible says so," pick and choose which parts of the LAW in Pre-Jesus time they want to live by. Never mind the fact that they commit lots of those "abominations" listed in the book of Leviticus almost every day. 

Quote from the "slides" section related to the show: 

**Dr. Phil wants to distinguish between changing behavior and changing orientation. “You change the behavior, I don’t think anybody would disagree with that, but what you’re saying is, it shouldn’t be counted as a success if somebody goes and lives a life that is not their authentic self, but yet doesn’t practice a gay sexual relationship with somebody,” he says to Justin.

“There is a lot of pressure in ex-gay ministries to say that you’ve completely changed, whether or not that’s the case,” Justin points out.

David chimes in, “That is a complete misrepresentation of ex-gay ministries, in what we ask of people.”

“That’s why I’m always very skeptical of simply accepting anyone saying, ‘I used to be this, and now I am this,” Justin says.

“It is a struggle,” David admits. “It takes many years for the orientation to change. And there are times when people fail. But it’s just like alcoholism. It takes time, and you have to really want to change, or it’s not going to happen.”** 

David tried to call Justin a liar when he tried to claim that Justin had had contact with only one ex-gay ministry and/or was only using one as his source. Justin corrected that misunderstanding.  

In regard to alcoholism, and David himself, he was a drug and alcohol abuser. As a believer in Jesus the Christ, I personally know that God can and still does instantly heal people of alcoholism and drug addictions. But, God has NEVER changed a person's sexual orientation. Oh, it's possible that God can change sexual orientation; but, there has never been any real proof of that by any ex-gay. 

Andy Comiskey, founder of the ex-gay ministry "Desert Streams," which is in cahoots with Exodus International, wrote in the 1980s, that after he had been married more than 20 years and had grown children, he still experienced physiological sexual attraction towards men on occasion. Comiskey was calling himself an ex-homosexual and even claimed that God changed him; but, in that article in a conservative Christian magazine, Charisma, he said he admitted to a gay man what I just wrote when he found out the guy was gay and attending Comiskey's home church.  

While I look "European-American" to most European-Americans and I have green eyes, I am a card-carrying member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and I am even registered with the Department of the Interior's Bureau of Indian Affairs as Indian. But, I prefer to self-identify as a Native American who is also Cherokee. My English-origin last name, Doty, came to the northern hemisphere in 1620 on the Mayflower. The Cherokee line comes from my mother's mother's side.  

In my research of Native American Spirituality, I have also found that an overwhelming majority of Native American and Native Canadian tribal cultures, aka First Nations People, have an oral, ans sometimes documented in writing, history of what we might call homosexuals in their tribes.  

Before the Europeans arrived, many of the Cherokees' spiritual tribal leaders were not exclusively heterosexual. Robert Conley, who is a well-known western fiction writer in some circles, wrote and apparently is still writing, a historical fiction series on the Cherokees with the approval of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. The series is called the Real People Series (that's a translation of what Cherokees orginally called themselves). In the 2nd installment of that series, "The Way of the Priests," many of the priests are definitely homosexual. [The only negative part about that book is that those priests decided that they wanted to run the tribe according to their doctrines and take over the government of the Cherokees and the people rebelled with very few priests even living to tell about it by escaping from the tribe.] Conley had to get that information for Cherokee Oral History rather than was was published in his other sources of information.  

My friend, Tommy, who worked with a local Indian Clinic and was an AIDS Educator, told me that a Cherokee friend of his wanted to come out to his mother but was afraid of admitting that he was gay because the friend was not sure how his mother would accept it. Well, when the friend told his mother that he was gay, the friend's mother said, "Now all my friends will be jealous!"  

Tommy, who is also Cherokee, said that Indians don't always tell white man what they believe and practice because the non-Indian sometimes misinterprets those things. The situation in this case was that, as in many other tribes' traditions, to have a child who is not "heterosexual" is to be blessed by the Creator and that is parent and child are both divinely special.  

mommyjenna wrote: "I'm using the King James Version of 1611."  

Oh really? Was it published in England, too? Most people in the USA who have a KJV do NOT have a Bible with all of the very same books as the 1611 AD version of the King James Bible. In fact, very few people can even read and understand the spelling and language style of that time period, which is the same time period as Shakespeare.  

Back in the latter 19th Century, some Protestant American Bible people decided to remove some of the books out of their Old Testament and that was out of their KJV Old Testament. So, if you go to a Southern Baptist Convention owned bookstore, "Lifeway Christian Store," and ask for a KJV Bible, you will not get a REAL 1611 KJV Bible, you will get a Protestant Bible.  

Oh, by the way, the Church of England at the time of King James was no longer a Roman Catholic Church, but, the Church of England and/or the Anglican Communion was/is still a Catholic denomination. 

The official King James Version of the Bible published in the United Kingdom has all of the very same Bible books as the Roman Catholic Bibles and the Eastern Orthodox Bibles. 

NAMBLA (North American Boy-Love Association) is not a homosexual organization. Pedophilia is a sexual disorder and has absolutely no connection with homosexual orientation.  

Oh, pedophiles, 95+/- percent of whom are actually heterosexual in their sexual orientation and don't experience sexual attraction toward adult men at all, think they have a right to be classified as "homosexual" because they have sex with boys.  

Same-gender sexual activity between an adult male and a minor child is NOT homosexuality. It is about control; just like rape of women by men is about control. 

In regard to sexual preferences, don't confuse that with sexual orientation either. Normal people, no matter what their sexual orientation, do have control over their sexual preferences. "Preference" means that it is a choice; "orientation" in this discussion means that one's sexual orientation is inborn and not a choice at all. One cannot choose to be heterosexual, bisexual, nor homosexual; they just happen to be one of those 3 sexual orientations. 

I see that you mix up human traits that are learned and/or acquired with sexual orientation, which can neither be learned nor aquired. One has absolutely no control over one's sexual orientation.  

You cannot give up to God your being a heterosexual, a bisexual, or a homosexual, especially when your sexual orientation is apparently a part of God's design for you, just like hair color, eye color and which hand you prefer to use are His design for you, too. If you have green eyes and everyone else around you have brown and/or blue eyes, and you give those green eyes up to God, will God make your eyes either brown or blue? Of course NOT!!!!!!   

David, the ex-prostitute turned priest, attempted to use his fromer professional promiscuity of selling sexual services and his former drug and alcohol addiction as part of the reason  that he was no longer a homosexual. If you read his testimony on Exodus International's website, all of you who know how to use your brain power to think will see that he was NEVER homosexual in the first place.  

Exodus International people like to use David's kind of testimony because it supports all of their stereotypical garbage of what makes a person a homosexual. 

One doe NOT have a tendency (aka propensity) to be homosexual, like one who is the child or grandchild in a family where there is a history of alcohol abuse and that child (minor age or adult) has a propensity/tendency to be an alcoholic, too, if he (or she) starts drinking alcohol.  

If the child born into a family with a history of alcoholism, but, no one even drinks alcoholic beverages around him and he does not even know what it is, he will not have a desire to open a bottle of beer if he sees one or have a desire to taste what is in an open container of alcholic beverage or it being in a glass, etc. If those who have a tendency to be an alcoholic never know what alcoholic beverages are, they will never crave an alcoholic beverage. 

One whose sexual orientation is exclusively homosexual can experience those down-below-the-belt, behind the pubic-bone, in-the-area-of-prostate (for males or the uterus for females) physiological sexual attraction sensations toward a member of the same sex, even when the person is not even thinking about sex or knows what sex is, for that matter. 

The people in the USA have misused words making two words with different meanings to mean the same thing. 

The original meaning of "celibate" was "not married." It did not mean one who had never had sexual activity. One who has never had sexual activity is one who is "chaste."  

I have known about people who got married; meaning they were no longer celibate; but, they were sexually still virgins after marriage, remaining chaste.  

I am currently celibate; since I am a single man. But, I am not a virgin, sexually. I had a partner/co-husband for almost 7 years. I use "co-husband" here because we cared for each other as equal male spouses in our unconditional love for each other. Oh, I was legally celibate as far as my relationship with Ed was concerned, since we did not have a valid marriage license.  

Dr. Phil should not have put three different topics into the very same show. 

The parents thinking that their little boy was gay because of his desire to be a girl were in error because with the child that was an issue of gender identity. 

The mother and her two daughters was a family communication issue and the mother and the heterosexually married daughter did not have a real issue, from a non-religious point of view, with the other daughter being a lesbian (female homosexual).  

The segment with David and Justin could be expanded into a whole series in discussion the phony groups calling themselves ex-gay ministries. I call those ministries "phony" or false because if you ask the leaders of the groups some pertinent questions and they know for sure that they are not going to get any money from you for their organization, they will be more honest in their answers. 

More and more of the ex-gay/ex-homosexual/sexual-change "Christian" ministries are being taken over by people who have never had a same-gender physiological sexual attraction nor even had even one same-gender sexual activity with a person of the same sex. They have absolutely no idea as to what it means to have experienced same-gender sexual attractions.