â€œBelligerence, Anger and Avoidanceâ€
"I was there too," a man says from the audience. Ross is another former FLDS member who was kicked out of the church. He has a problem with what Jessop is saying.
"Is that not your signature?" Sam asks, referring to the document in his hands.
Jessop argues that his signature was on the document being used for other petitions, and it was attached to the current petition as if he signed that one too.
"So, you're saying they took your signature from an earlier time when you were still in the service, and they took it and transferred it over to this," Dr. Phil says.
Jessop nods. "Do you see the importance of specifics?" he asks. "It's so important for specifics because if you don't, people get hurt really bad."
[AD]"What is it you're apologizing for?" Dr. Phil asks him.
"I think all I'm asking is to be judged on what I did actually do wrong, which is plenty," Jessop says. "What I was asked to do is accept total responsibilities over gravesite removals, over this case," he says, referring to Brent, "which I was not involved with any of the act against you, at all."
"But apparently, you were involved enough to find out all these facts saying that I'm a liar, and I'm lying about this," Brent says.
"I didn't say that," Jessop says. "I'm saying I didn't have enough information to give it credence."
"[Sam] talked about something earlier, about a meeting where you allegedly swapped out a baby during an investigation to protect the father, because it was an underage mother. That's very specific. Did you do that?" Dr. Phil asks Jessop.
"Absolutely not," he says.
"Who did it then?" Sam asks.
"I don't know who did it."
"Do you know that it happened?" Dr. Phil asks.
"Oh, yes, you do," Sam argues.
"I knew about it when I was called about it. I had no knowledge of any of it," Jessop says.
Joni argues, and Jessop tells her, "If you seem to know so much about the case, give us some details about it."
"I'm tired of the details. Why don't you just step up to the plate? You're twisting everything that's been put up on this stage," she says angrily.
[AD]Dr. Phil explains, "I understand the scenario is they were going to test this baby to find out if the father was a certain individual, and if so, then that person had had sex with an underage girl, and so they were bringing the baby to test for paternity, and she brought a different baby. But when they tested the DNA, the DNA didn't match the mother either."
"That's right," Sam says.
"So, therefore it wasn't the real baby. And you're saying that you weren't a party to that, and you didn't know about it," he says to Jessop.
"Not at all," Jessop says.
"I don't believe that," Sam says.
"You know what I believe? I believe there's a point in time where people come to a precipice and have to make a decision that says, â€˜You know what? It's time to wipe the slate clean and move forward,'" Dr. Phil tells Jessop. "And the people here who know you and experience you feel that you're not being honest with yourself or with others. I think there are people here who agree with you that you have done things that you shouldn't have done, and that you agree in hindsight that you shouldn't have done. And I really got the spirit of the people here that they came here wanting to forgive you and accept an apology and move forward, but I think instead what they've gotten is belligerence, anger and avoidance. And I think that frustrates everybody, because I think they came here wanting to start a fresh time with you, a fresh day with you. And that's your responsibility. You want specifics? That's a specific responsibility."
"And they've got to have it, Phil. They've got to have it, and we've got to have " and we have to distinguish " and all I was asking for, folks, is to distinguish stuff where we actually know where it's at. Was that man kicked out of the church?" he asks, referring to Ross. "He was. Did it crush him? He's crushed. His wife was crushed " "
"I'm not crushed at all," Ross interjects. "I'm actually very blessed by having that done to me. I opened up."
"There's a point where it's not about defending, but it's about, â€˜Can we get a fresh start?'" Dr. Phil tells Jessop. "They all question, what now? What happens with this church now? What I worry about from a psychological perspective is how these disillusioned people can do spinning off into a world they're not equipped to deal with. Let me ask you this: Could you arrange for me to come in and sit down with these young girls, without any monitoring, and talk to them?"
"Which ones would you like?" he asks.
"I would like a selection of young girls I could come in and talk to, and see what their challenges are, and see what we could put on the to-do list, to try to provide some psychological, spiritual, emotional support for some of these girls at this point. In fact, find out if they have a different story to tell. I would like to do that. Can you make that happen?" Dr. Phil asks.
"With the regime the way it is sitting today, there's a fear factor for anyone to try to voice that story," he says. Jessop says the guests present know that there would be consequences to something like that.
Dr. Phil explains that he believes the FLDS community and the families that have been torn apart are going to need help, as they begin to learn about the truth about their so-called prophet. "You can put up the gate, you can put up the walls, you can turn off the televisions, but eventually the message gets through. It's going to have an impact. There's no question," he says.
[AD]The studio audience goes home with a copy of Sam's book, Prophet's Prey: My Seven-Year Investigation into Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints.
Brent's book, Lost Boy: The True Story of One Man's Exile from a Polygamist Cult and His Brave Journey to Reclaim His Life, can be found in stores now.